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Secondary education

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Original poster

Super-selectives: how do we know if we're kidding ourselves?

62 replies

teaandthorazine · 28/02/2012 12:15

"There were 1458 boys applied for admission to Sutton Grammar School for the 120 available places for entry in September 2011. 404 of the boys tested were deemed to be of selective ability."

So, over a thousand boys took the test and didn't even reach the pass mark? I knew it was competitive out there but honestly didn't realise it was quite this bad.

How do you/did you know that your child was 'grammar material' (horrible phrase but there we go)? Because I can't believe that anyone would put their child in for an exam they didn't think they could pass. And yet... a thousand kids...

Did your primary school give an idea? Or did you just think, hell, let's give it go, nothing to lose? I feel really naive and a bit shocked now!

OP posts:
CustardCake · 29/02/2012 13:18

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gazzalw · 29/02/2012 17:03

I think we might all be in a better position to determine this after tomorrow's Offer Day...

I am not totally convinced that all the boys/girls who take the super-selective 11+ exams are super, super bright - only going on own experience of the cohort from DS's class who did them - sometimes it seems to be more about parents's aspirations than about the DCs actual abilities.

DS passed all three but we didn't know if he would or not (and it remains to be seen whether - he is one of these children who seems really lazy but actually does take it all in very easily. But I don't think that most people meeting him for the first time would think "wow that boy is bright".

I think some children naturally have the aptitude in the right areas and some children are very clever but it doesn't necessarily fit into the 11+ box. Always cite the case of an extraordinarily clever girl we know we would have been the one child all parents would have put money on to pass and get into grammar school - but she didn't and ended up at a good indie instead!

banditqueen · 29/02/2012 19:21

Silly question but what is the definition of a super selective? Do you just mean grammar school?

CustardCake · 29/02/2012 19:29

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bibbityisaporker · 29/02/2012 19:35

Oh dear God, I can't imagine the pressure children must feel under in this whole ghastly process. Not to mention what its like when you're actually at a school like Tiffin or Graveney.

animula · 29/02/2012 19:44

I attended a parent's thing at a Sutton grammar and the Head said that if your son was looking like achieving two level 5s and a level 4 at the end of KS2 it was a "racing certainty" he'd get a place at a Sutton grammar.

It's really not as pressured as you'd think.

gazzalw · 29/02/2012 19:49

the ghastly bit is this bit.....having been assured that one's child is of the required standard but still not knowing if they've pulled it out of the bag...(in terms of several 11+ passes being converted into an actual offer of a place!)

Not sure that SATS levels or projected levels at end of Year 5 easily translate/convert into 11+ passes.... they are quite distinct with the VR/NVR giving an extra dimension that particularly for State school children is entirely new and therefore a challenge.

I would hazard a guess that the ones who get into super-selectives tend to be the top 1/2/3/4 in a class but there again it depends on how clever the class is.... DS's class is known to be clever and four have passed 11+ exams thus far... but there are a couple of selective comps in the mix too that some could pass for....

banditqueen · 29/02/2012 19:49

Ahh I see, thank you custard! Yes must be quite a strange experience going to school with that cohort bibbity...

Theas18 · 01/03/2012 10:09

Local grammars here are supers selective. The secondary school info gives stats that suggest 5% or so of kids that sit the test get a place....but there are 2 girls grammars 2 boys and 1 co ed in the system all taking the same exam so the " number sitting the exam and wanting a particular school on the choices form " is impossible to work out.

For instance we put 3 grammars on our choices form in order of preference ( so presumably appears on the " number sitting the exam applying for school x 3 times?) so it's really impossible to work the stats out. Some people only put 1 grammar down.

Primary would give no guidance apart from an off the record " whisper behind the bike shed type thing" they were all at level 5 early in yr5 .

Btw for those worrying about " the pressure" super selective grammar kids feel- ll I can say is that my 3 don't show it - they are happy rounded kids with lots of extra curricular stuff as well as academic success. This has continued for dd1 at uni- she's doing really well and balancing the priorities of work with the demands of a " singing job" and a great social life. I don't know how this has happened but a lot is I'm sure that the school expects them to be busy people and succeed - the academic external prize winners are always in sports teams/ orchestras and shows as well for instance.

Mind you some of th kids at the schools are pressurised hugely by parents - imagine " you will sit that 11plus exam and we will relocate the family to allow you to attend" yup that happens because there is no catchment area ...

mumzy · 01/03/2012 12:33

The thing is you have to remember most academic preps. Teach their pupils a year in advance so a bright private pupil will be operating at least level 5 across the board. By. The. Time they. Sit the exam early In year 6 for gs places.

mumzy · 01/03/2012 12:34

And with the recession lots more private school pupils will be sitting for gs placs in the next few years

bijou3 · 01/03/2012 12:41

Exactly Mumzy, so now children will have to be working at level 6 in year 5 just to be in with a chance. The whole process is ridiculous.

Heswall · 01/03/2012 12:48

This is why I paid for prep between years 3 and 6 for my daughter and it worked.
If you are in a grammar school area it's the best £25,000 you'll ever spend.

sue52 · 01/03/2012 20:27

A good example of the unfairness of the 11 plus Heswell.

thetasigmamum · 01/03/2012 20:43

@sue it's not the 11+ that's unfair. It's that the system allows money to trump ability or merit. That is what is unfair.

Heswall · 01/03/2012 21:07

If the ability wasn't there in the first place she would never have passed the exam no matter what I paid.
Lots of parents pay tutors to no avail, the problem is one with the state schools they do not teach the questions on the blooming papers, especially the maths papers.

thetasigmamum · 01/03/2012 21:15

@Heswell state schools do not teach VR. If a grammar school sets maths and English papers though they will be based on the national curriculum and the state schools do teach that.

Heswall · 02/03/2012 11:16

There were questions on the practice papers sent out by the local authority that the children had never seen. They may well be on the NC but it hadn't been taught.

breadandbutterfly · 02/03/2012 11:30

If your dc is one of the top 2 or 3 in their class, consistently, then they are not kidding themselves. You know if your child is quite good or the brightest/one of the brightest.

I suspect you were 'done' for 25K, Heswall, as there is nothing in the 11+ exam that can't be done by a child at a state school - the only difference is the tests cover year 6 maths, but are sat at the start of year 6, hence the child will need to have covered all the year 6 maths topics, which many/most will not yet have done. However, year 6 maths isn't very dificult and any normally bright parent can cover that quite adequately with their dc, or pay a tutor to do so if rhey really are not capable/too busy.

I suppose the tests are biased in favour of those who come from nice middle-class homes so have access to lots of books etc.

breadandbutterfly · 02/03/2012 11:37

I think some people push their kids to apply even though not in the top few because, as you say, they want to give it a go, nothing to lose, and, sadly, many believe the dross on here that money can buy you in so imagine if they spend a fortune on tutoring then theur dc will be guaranteed a place - hard on the kids who feel they've failed AND wasted huge amounts of time and effort on achieving this AND feel guilty for costing their parents that much.

Though there are many kids who are borderline - at each mark away from the score that gets in there may be 20 or 30 children with that score, so many near misses - they were probably right to give it a go, but it all depends on their performance on the day, obviously. Hence some get into one grammar but not another.

Others are naturally bright but come from v uneducated homes so are not helped or encouraged adequately - those are the saddest.

bijou3 · 02/03/2012 11:42

I believe that less selective schools have a better standard of teaching and create a better atmosphere for learning.

sue52 · 02/03/2012 13:01

At my DD's selective school, it is rare to find a child who hasn't had extra tuition at a price to pass the 11plus. It is also as rare to find a child from a low income family. These things are not unrelated.

Cleek · 02/03/2012 19:47

Lynli if my dcs at level 5 in yr 3 I would just put my feet up. Why bother anymore coaching?

Cleek · 02/03/2012 20:19

I agree with sue52. A few days ago I spoke with someone who got two children into grammar schools. She sent all her children to private school from nursery to year 6 plus paying for extra coaching outside school hours. Just to make sure that they will get in gs. When I heard that my heart nearly jumped out. I was feeling very humble and naive as well.

gazzalw · 03/03/2012 10:26

Right, just checking in again to give my post 1st March Offers Day view of things.

DS got third choice grammar school (but high on waiting list for second choice one too). We did practice papers at home and filled in gaps with VR/NVR but we didn't use an external tutor. We spent about 3-6 months practising at a low-level and then upped the game during summer hols before Year 6 (he would do a NVR or VR and maths or literacy paper most days except when we were on holiday and away from home - they need a break!).

At the end of Year 5 he was a 5b in maths and 4a/5c in literacy. Classmates (one or two) who were at the same SATS levels haven't passed any of the 11+ exams so SATS results alone shouldn't make you complacent.

I cannot really explain what it is that makes one child pass and another one fail (even if they both have supportive parents and are generally bright buttons) but it certainly would seem that whilst SATS projections might give you a general idea of whether your child is of the required standard or not, they are no guarantee.

The whole thing is not an exact science at all. DS is quite lazy and he was at times a most unwilling pupil and we did really wonder whether he had the aptitude and/or desire to do well. But he passed all three 11+ exams and has the offer of at least one place. One of his classmates has never been higher than the middle table for numeracy/literacy (but had a tutor for thee years) and yet they too passed and has a grammar school offer.

Who can say but it would appear to be as much to do with attitude to doing exams and speed as inherent intelligence. DS is fast and finished just about all of his papers over the five selective exams he took (whereas the level-pegging classmate who failed by a matter of 4 or 5 points didn't finish most of his). And perhaps more importantly he is not at all nervy about exams - he enjoys the challenge!

Hope that helps!