To Pay Or Not To Pay?

[BelleTheBeatnik]

Basically, DH & I are currently considering enrolling DC in private school.

At the moment, the oldest two our at the local primary (very good school; didn't particularly consider alternatives) but later this year we'll be making the move down south for DH's work. His new job will change our lives quite drastically money-wise, and the grandparents are very anxious we invest the disposable income in our children's futures.

Here's the catch: from a teenager, I was always adamant that any children of mine would attend comprehensives. As far as I was concerned, they did me very well, and us lot from comps were clever enough to know not to pay for education, and bright enough not to need it.

I've since mixed with the upper-middle class at uni, and met DH (though you wouldn't know it, he went to one of those ridiculously posh schools) and I'm not as stubborn these days! However, I still hold some of my fundamental views.

I'm rubbish at spending money extravagantly, and as much as I fully appreciate that the DC's education is one of the most important things, spending large amounts of money on something which is very often provided completely free seems a little... wasteful? I hope that doesn't sound as awful to you as it does when I read it back!

I've been considering the options a lot recently, but I suppose my problem is having no-one (other than DH) to mull it over with. His friends and family are almost exclusively privately-educated, and so are fully supportive of the idea. My nearest and dearest, however, are generally not, and aren't as keen. Obviously, it's a sensitive subject at the moment, when the majority are struggling financially.

I think my in-laws have always secretly wanted the DC to follow their other grandchildren and the rest of the family into the Eton-esque schools. DH and I are both dead against boarding, so it always seemed slightly less likely, but now we'll be nearer the family's favourite schools, and more able to afford them.

Some of the fees truly make my eyes boggle - particularly when I think about the income my parents raised me and my brother on! But at the same time, both DH and I know that we're lucky to be in this situation, and don't want to regret not giving the DC these opportunities when we were fully capable of it.

Sorry for waffling. I just think I need some rational advice from MNers!

Thank you in advance... :)

TBH, your principles may well change when you see what state schools are on offer where you move to :)

How old are your dc ? Some private secondaries will have already closed registration lists for next year and pretested those planning to enter at 13+ during Year 6.

What are the logistics of your proposed move?

When exactly? Part way through a school year? Or over the summer between the school years?

Have you looked into the schools near where you will be going? What is there that you like the look of, and do you stand an earthly of getting a place?

DC are 8, 5 and 2. I know exactly what you mean SoupDragon, I think we need to look around the local schools. One of the things I really like about comprehensives is that they are comprehensive, and the DC will mix with others from different backgrounds, but I that won't be the most important thing when compared to the actual performance and feel of the school.

We're hoping to move over the summer, so we can settle in and get the house sorted before the DC start a new school year. Where we are now, the children generally go to the primary in their village and the most of them stay together to move up to the same secondary. The areas we're looking at are very good for schools and have a lot of options - although obviously that makes the desicon harder.

There are fab comps in the south, and the private school fees can be eye watering.
You need to find where you want to live, and then look carefully at schools. You may live in a cheaper area, and then ferry your kids to private schools, or pay more on a house to get them into a good comp.
Do also remember that private schools tend to be getting more and more selective, so what would be your back up strategy? Eg. Eton does reject the off- spring of old Etonians.

There are crap comps too, mummytime!

Remember to check whether any preferred secondary comp has feeder primaries and take that into consideration.

Soup dragon I wasn't saying they are all good. There are also grammar school areas too.
Just you don't have to go private in the South, and things have changed in a lot of private schools (probably since PILs time).

DS is very young at the moment (five), and we definitely don't want to become the sort of parents who try to mold their child into an 'Etonian'. If he turns out to be the sort of child that we feel would thrive in that enviroment, and is capable academically etc, then we'll look at the option, however I really don't like the idea of boarding school one bit at the moment. DD1 is eight; she's very academic, and DH's friend's wife keeps telling me that private education will provide the stimulation to challenge her. But surely that depends on the school - a very good state school could do it better than an average private school? Or will the small classes be more useful? Sorry, I expect I sound really ditzy, just have little knowledge of independent schools.

It depends on the individual school and child. So go and look, very bright kids do do well in state schools, they can also be failed by private schools. But that doesn't mean every state school will do better with every bright child than every private school, or vice versa.
Do look at both, and don't be seduced just by car parks, libraries or dining halls.

in this bit of Hampshire the comps are FAB
25 miles east they are less so ....
it really depends on where you will be living

We will. It'll be good for us to go down and see a bit of the area anyway, as although we were both born nearby we don't know that area of London very well, and I'm sure DC would love to see it. And don't worry mummytime, I don't allow myself to be blinded by shiny dining hall floors! LOL! Thank you for the advice :)

You can't mould a child into an Etonian. They're an Etonian if they go to Eton and they aren't one if they don't go. I've also never met two Etonians that are the same.

I think your plan should be to send them to the state school and if it turns out to be appalling then you won't see paying school fees as being wasteful but being necessary. If your kids are happy at the state school then there is no need to spend any money on fees. All I would say though is that e South is more polarised than up North when it comes to education. There are more grammars and highly selective independent schools that cream off the top pupils so the comprehensives in some areas are not truly comprehensive. In other areas, the comps are not socially diverse and are either filled with mainly middle-class kids or mainly disadvantaged kids.

I've never really understood the argument for wanting kids to be in a socially diverse school. What has that got to do with a good education or how kids turn out. Most end up being friends within their own social class eventually anyway.

We sent our dd to an outstanding comp in London for a couple of years. The social intake was broad but there was a complete stand off between the middle class girls and the chavvy girls. The latter were also disruptive, intimidating and didn't want to be there. 50% of every lesson was spent settling them and there were no consequences for unacceptable behaviour.

Benefits of independent: better behaved children, firm boundaries, all subjects taught by subject specialists, better communication, better enrichment activities, broader and more academic curriculum, more accessible staff, better pastoral care, better facilities, etc. etc.

My ds was in an ofsted outstanding state primary in a class with 30 other kids. He had always been in the top set as he is very able. We always had the problem of him not being challenged enough. The typical trend was 1st term, he'll have the teacher's attention and be challenged but by 2nd term, he'd be left to coast. Id always had the dilemma of should he go private, should he stay in state?

Eventually, his year 3 teacher put things into perspective for me. She quite honestly admitted he's quite intelligent and she tries to challenge him but that I have to appreciate she has 30 other kids to support as well. And that her priority unfortunately has to go to the children that are lagging behind in order to bring them up to scratch.

It made sense really, it won't do well for league tables if 4 children attain level 6, and 20 kids level 3, they'd rather have all kids on level 5, iyswim.

At that point, we made the decision to go private, where there are smaller sizes, and he can get better attention.

So it really depends on what you really want and the motive behind it. I couldn't justify spending all that money initially because my motive was really just to keep up with the joneses! But now, I know it's the best thing for my child and it makes it all worth it.

Colleger What I meant was, we don't want to raise DS in a certain way, just to ensure he will get into a school like Eton, as in putting pressure on him to get certain grades and forcing him to play certain sports and instruments. The argument for wanting a socially diverse school, at least my argument, stems from mine and DH 's own schooldays. At school, from a young age I had friends who lived on council estates and some that were very well off, and barely noticed the 'difference' between the two. Whereas DH famously told me on the night we met "I've never met a working glass girl before" (charming! ). I think it's good for children to go to school with pupils from a variety of cultures, classes, religions and backgrounds - it allows them to understand debates from different perspectives, which might not necessarily provide them with a 'good' education in terms of qualifications, but I'm sure we all agree that that isn't the only role of education.

I also want the DC to know they are very lucky, and their lifestyle is not 'normal' and shouldn't be expected in the future without lots hard work; that's why I'd like it if they could mix with lots of different children, in stead of just those who live similar lives to them.

Never understood the idea that children are better behaved at private school. Surely it depends completely on the particular school and the discipline they enforce?

A lot depends on the individual school

Just imagine how offensive this threadwould be if you had assumed that all state schools were alike and you had to raise your DCs in a particular way in order for them to "fit in" with your stereotypes of what sort of people went there. Drop the cliches.

Go and look at all the schools that may be possibles, regardless of which sector they belong to. Have an open mind on you visits, then choose the ones which you think will best suit your DCs. It's no different from any parent choosing a school - ignore myths, do your homework about what is really on offer think of your DCs. That you are rich enough to have a wider choice than most doesn't alter the essentials.

Sorry if I've said anything offensive, honestly did mean for anything to come across that way. I've got foot in mouth syndrome.

"I think your plan should be to send them to the state school and if it turns out to be appalling then you won't see paying school fees as being wasteful but being necessary. If your kids are happy at the state school then there is no need to spend any money on fees."
I think Colleger has the right idea there!

We have one DS at a top boys independent boarding school one at the countys top performing state. When independent is at its best and your DC is happy then it can't be beaten. The facilities the extra curricular activities the breadth of the lessons the pastoral care the attitude of the staff to you and your DC's the camaraderie between the children in a boarding house the cultural opportunities I could go on. My DS 2 loves it. But there are also good state schools with committed teachers, access to not bad facilities lunch time after school clubs and even in non selective comps good results. My DS1 loves it for him there was no better local independent school that could compare with the state option.

I think I've got foot in mouth syndrome too! I really didn't mean to imply that you had been offensive (I don't think you have been), and I meant only to point out that using stereotypes for school communities isn't really helpful.

As you DCs are KS2 age, I'd look for an adequate primary (probably state) for them to go to in the immediate aftermath of your move. Then concentrate your search on the right secondary - again looking at all options from both sectors.

If you mooch about MN and read some of the many, many threads about this huge decision, you'll find that a great many people had no desire at all to use private education UNTIL they saw very closely what was on offer to them in their immediate local vicinity.

I was in a similar position to you - came from a w/c background, grew up on a council estate, went to a comp in a socially deprived area of the UK, married a posh boy who went to boarding school. Didn't occur to me that I might want to send my child private UNTIL I headed to the local lovely primary, which everyone raved about in our area of zone 2 , London. Found it truly was lovely and I would have happily sent my kids there. But we didn't get a place. What we did get offered was not comparable. It was heartbreaking and we were dragged (kicking and screaming) down the private route instead. Now we are there, we are very happy with our choice. It's working well for our dc.

So wait and see what is actually available to you at your new address, in both the state and private sectors and then decide.

Our DC are in a quite famous school, but regular visits to my home town to visit friends and family ensure they know there is a very diverse population out there. That bit is up to YOU, you know.

I think you need to look at all the schools and you will probably get a gut feeling. We sent ours state until eleven hoping (among lots of other reasons) that that would give them an understanding of their place in society and how lucky they now are to be at their lovely independent school with its listed buildings and acres of fields etc.

Some parents comfortable with comprehensive schooling and contemplating relocation might find themselves living next to schools like the Camden School for Girls, Dame Alice Owen, the Watford Grammars, etc. Mixing with different types of families often seems to make young people gravitate towards their own faster. They don't tend to get 'infected', more that their life choices appear sooner, IYSWIM.

Going independent is fine if kids are the sort that schools compete over. If they are like most of us and things don't work out, there is often no acceptable state option on which to rely. Money is for spending, provided it's there, so that isn't really the prime factor, if you are having to make choices over where to live anyway.

My observation is that parents choosing location based on junior school just have a bigger problem later, when it matters more, if location matters at all.

I think that you have to find the right school for the child. A sporty child will not thrive at an academic school that pays lip service to sport, and vice versa. Look at all the options without taking into account private /state and choose the school that suits your child best.

i was educated for secondary at a private school and was often aware that this opened doors for me. I may have done equally well at a state school but we will never know. I always thought that we would consider private for dd at secondary. It wasn't an option for primary. But when we realised our state options that were dire it became obvious that private was the only option to ensure a decent standard of education.

My nieces and nephew were all educated in the state system, 2 of them attended a very good state school but both left at 16 for a variety of reasons, one is now in a job where he is very unhappy. I have another niece who attended a reasonable state school and her whole class failed their Art exam.

When we went looking at private schools for dd she immediately fell in love with one of them and to be honest we were quite impressed too. Not by the facilities and the resources, but by the attitude of the staff and the other pupils. We knew that dd would be happy there. If we had got that in a state school then she could have gone there.

In my opinion children are better behaved at private schools for a number of reasons, poor behaviour isn't tolerated, there are sanctions, and ultimately children removed from the school. Many selective schools have children who are self motivated and want to learn so are less inclined to play up (commented by my mother who was a teacher in both sectors).

I think it's an interesting conundrum - in some ways I'm struggling with the same sort of thing. We could afford private secondary for the DDs, but both DH and I went to a state school, both did well, and really like the social inclusiveness of the comprehensive system. But then I have doubts (DH less I think) and wonder if we'll regret not giving the DDs this change, when we can afford it.

I think we'll start them off at the local comprehensive, reassured by the knowledge that if it doesnt' work out, there are other options. And yes, I realise how enormously lucky we are to be in that situation. But a part of me also wants to go and look at the local private school when we look at schools for DD1 next year, only another part doesn't because I'm too scared I'll really like it . . . . !