To Pay Or Not To Pay?

[BelleTheBeatnik]

Basically, DH & I are currently considering enrolling DC in private school.

At the moment, the oldest two our at the local primary (very good school; didn't particularly consider alternatives) but later this year we'll be making the move down south for DH's work. His new job will change our lives quite drastically money-wise, and the grandparents are very anxious we invest the disposable income in our children's futures.

Here's the catch: from a teenager, I was always adamant that any children of mine would attend comprehensives. As far as I was concerned, they did me very well, and us lot from comps were clever enough to know not to pay for education, and bright enough not to need it.

I've since mixed with the upper-middle class at uni, and met DH (though you wouldn't know it, he went to one of those ridiculously posh schools) and I'm not as stubborn these days! However, I still hold some of my fundamental views.

I'm rubbish at spending money extravagantly, and as much as I fully appreciate that the DC's education is one of the most important things, spending large amounts of money on something which is very often provided completely free seems a little... wasteful? I hope that doesn't sound as awful to you as it does when I read it back!

I've been considering the options a lot recently, but I suppose my problem is having no-one (other than DH) to mull it over with. His friends and family are almost exclusively privately-educated, and so are fully supportive of the idea. My nearest and dearest, however, are generally not, and aren't as keen. Obviously, it's a sensitive subject at the moment, when the majority are struggling financially.

I think my in-laws have always secretly wanted the DC to follow their other grandchildren and the rest of the family into the Eton-esque schools. DH and I are both dead against boarding, so it always seemed slightly less likely, but now we'll be nearer the family's favourite schools, and more able to afford them.

Some of the fees truly make my eyes boggle - particularly when I think about the income my parents raised me and my brother on! But at the same time, both DH and I know that we're lucky to be in this situation, and don't want to regret not giving the DC these opportunities when we were fully capable of it.

Sorry for waffling. I just think I need some rational advice from MNers!

Thank you in advance... :)

You should consider that it may not be as easy as you think to move a child from state secondary to private. It would be sensible to see what the admissions are like for your "chosen" private school.

You say that you "don't want to raise DS in a certain way"..."as in putting pressure on him to get certain grades" I acknowledge your talking about entrance onto Eton but if as a general ethos on life you don't want to put pressure on your DC's then you need to be very careful in the independent sector. Nearly all senior schools are going to out pressure on your DC's to get results the truly unselective who are truly not interested in exam results are few and far between if they exist all at and if your considering "one of those ridiculously posh schools" of this world then they will certainly be putting pressure on their children to achieve top grades at GCSE/IGCSE/A level/Pre U. Remember the bottom line is that most parents are paying for better exam results than Johnny would have got the local comp and the schools know this and cater for it.

Yes soupy is right - and bear in mind that you will need to sort out 11 plus preparation yourself as school won't do it for you. Be realistic about your child's abilities (and yours to make sure the work is done!). But it is very possible.

Bramshott-you must go, you can't make a proper decision unless you see the difference. Loads of our friends quietly think we are mad to send our two independent when they passed for grammar. But they never looked at the independent schools.

Regarding behavior being better at independent schools - they often don't have any qualms about getting rid of persistently badly behaved pupils, unlike state schools which can only exclude pupils in extreme circumstances. Basically, you are paying to be there, and if you don't measure up they don't need to keep you.

"You should consider that it may not be as easy as you think to move a child from state secondary to private. It would be sensible to see what the admissions are like for your "chosen" private school."
Also many of what you describe as "those ridiculously posh schools" take boys in particular at 13 and again the state wont prepare you for their entrance tests in particular MFL.

`if you have reservations about independent schools and feel strongly about your dcs to go to school with pupils from a variety of cultures, classes, religions and backgrounds then I would send them to state school.
Having said that, I think that ability to get on with different sorts of people is more down to personality than schooling. Also, like colleger I have never met two Etonians who are the same.

"You should consider that it may not be as easy as you think to move a child from state secondary to private."
Having done the move both ways, our experience was the opposite. 13+ is slightly more challenging at the very top, but exposure to Latin, Greek and French for a couple of years beforehand will work if your child is up to it. 11+ and 16+ moves are fine without preparation. If your child will struggle, you can choose to compound their misery by intensive tutoring. They can then spend another five to seven years re-learning where they already knew they were academically, rather than finding their own place in the world.
Top independents compete for good pupils, but state schools have rules and are much more open to challenge, so there is only so far they can bend after they have interviewed. Yes, top state schools interview too, either officially at 16+ or unofficially by phone. But they also follow rules, and I have never met any that have considered otherwise (or we'd have reservations about them), but they are immensely creative. Moving to a top comp outside of the 11+ process was much more difficult than moving to a top public school. Grammars are slightly easier because of their smaller constituency.

"In my opinion children are better behaved at private schools for a number of reasons, poor behaviour isn't tolerated, there are sanctions, and ultimately children removed from the school. Many selective schools have children who are self motivated and want to learn so are less inclined to play up (commented by my mother who was a teacher in both sectors)."
hahahaha
It's almost impossible to expel a handful of students paying £30k pa each. I have seen immediate expulsions in a comp while a public school may take months to train the students and their parents to keep under the radar while they complete their time there. Selective schools have children with parents who know the leeway several lots of £30k will buy. It seems that a good state school only considers the merit of the pupil's behaviour, while independents have to look elsewhere too (commented by one who has seen this in both sectors).
It's sometimes easy to forget that your child will almost find it impossible to ignore how they've been brought up. They will lean towards others who are similar, but hopefully also be open to those who are different.

Looking around a public school will tell you as much as browsing down Beauchamp Place. As for facilities, no child will use even half of them. Ask yourself what yours would use, and whether the school is the best provider. In the south-east, most good state schools have had major building works before the recession struck.

If top comps selected, and removed half to three-quarters of their students, you'd have to ask yourself what outcomes you're paying for. Especially since the state pays them less than half an independent's fees for each pupil. Perhaps all those fee remissions for their staff?

That said, when mine were facing these choices, it was very hard to know what was the right thing to do. Happily my youngest, as quiet and dangerously sensitive as the others, is loving their comp, has many friends, and enjoys a voluntary 'prep and activities' schedule as varied and unusual as any we know. Interestingly several friends at the comp have older Etonian DBs too, and you can't tell which school they attend. So we're not the only ones who only visit Beauchamp Place occasionally for our shopping.

If re-location were an option, we might have positioned ourselves to cover all bases. You have that lucky choice.

If you're prepared to go private, presumably you're happy with the idea of a grammar school? I live in Kent, and looking at the latest league tables, the local public schools all did worse than the grammars - and these are not super-selective grammar schools.

My advice would be to look at both private and comps once you know where you will be living. There may be some fantastic comps.

For us we decided to go down the private route. There were 3 main reasons that swayed us (and both primaries in our village are rated outstanding by OFSTED). 1. Teacher/student ratios (very low so we knew the teachers wouldn't have to struggle with 30 children in every year) 2. the teachers at our prep school build in at least 2 additional challenges to every lesson so that if students finish early there are additional challenges that build on the lesson and keep the students engaged while the others work on the base challenge 3. QC factor. The Quiet Confidence. We found the the children at the school were all very polite, confident but not in a pushy manner, and settled into a variety of social situations with ease.

Do you know exactly where you're moving to?

Agree with everyone else, you have to weigh up the local alternatives - I know people who've chosen their local comp over v presitigious private secondaries and vice versa and this is in London, it's such a personal decision.

Agree with Agapanthii . You have to visit both the local comp and independent school to get a feel for which is best for your DC, don't discount either until you have seen them. Regarding diversity of pupils, I have found that the independent schools near to me have a wide mix of children - some from very wealthy families, some from families where one parent works just to pay the fees, with the majority somewhere inbetween. This will of course depend on which independent schools you are looking at - some are more elitist than others !