Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Further Maths A level

76 replies

MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 31/01/2012 21:20

Argh. DS2 (year 11) has to choose his A level subjects for next year. He isn't really sure exactly what he wants to study at university so he is choosing subjects that hopefully keep things open for him rather than closing things down.

He might want to study Economics, Statistics, Physics or Physics with Philosophy or possibly even something else Grin at uni, he just doesn't know.

He had thought Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Economics but he's having a last minute crisis about Further Maths.

How hard is it, does anyone know? He is now wondering if he should swap it for something else, but in so doing he does rule out lots of university courses in the process.

And we have to decide by tomorrow evening as we have to talk to the teachers about the chosen A levels at parents' evening.

OP posts:
thetasigmamum · 02/02/2012 12:30

I did my A levels a long time ago, for I am old. 1985. I won't say I did no work for the maths and the further maths cos that wouldn't be true, I used to do past exam questions to unwind after the hard work of revising/doing the homework for the two subjects I was passionate about - History and Music. That's the thing about M and FM - a lot of people who take those subjects at A level find them really easy. Which can be frustrating or worse for those in the class who do not find them light relief. Which can cause people to drop out, which is a shame because unless they drop out in the early weeks they can't then 'drop in' to doing a different subject.

I think schools are right to warn kids thinking of doing FM that it might be hard and they might need real commitment if it turns out they aren't the ones who find it relaxing (you can't really tell based on GCSE maths who will be able to make the step and and who will find it a challenge). I think they are wrong to confuse putting your hand up in class all the time with either maths ability or dedication/commitment to hard work.

gelatinous · 02/02/2012 12:30

The registering externally sounds ridiculous and I'm not sure how it would work with regards to moving modules between maths and further maths (quite a few modules can belong to either and the exam boards have a process where they optimise results for both by realigning modules after the results are known which probably wouldn't be able to happen if they were taken at different centres). I think you should go back to the school and make a fuss until they back down.

I had some more thoughts about how hard it was and came to the conclusion that there are different types of hard - yes it is cognitively hard, but in terms of workload not so much so - your thoughts about work volume are right.

noblegiraffe · 02/02/2012 12:42

Hang on, the school won't let him do an a-level unless they think he will get an A in it?

And they would stop him doing it despite having the required A* because he doesn't put his hand up?

Or are they just expressing their reservations but would allow him to give it a go?

Re passion - he will be doing an awful lot of maths so some enthusiasm about the subject would be expected. This is not the same thing as putting your hand up in lessons.

Amaretti · 02/02/2012 12:56

I suspect "insufficiently passionate" means that they think he won't put the necessary effort in. You have said that he is a stranger to hard work!

If he were my son, and he still wanted to do further maths after taking a few days to think it over, I would suggest that he needs to get his finger out and demonstrate commitment to the subject in order to convince his teacher. Including always having his hand up and never being late with his homework. Is he doing the extra curricular maths - maths challenge and so on?

Original poster
MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 02/02/2012 12:56

He is pretty certain he wants to study Economics at uni. TO gain access to the best unis you need to have studied FM this would be as a 4th A level subject it wouldnt form part of his offer so he neednt acheive an A/A* for his purposes.

The teacher who said these things freely admitted that he hasn't seen enough of his Maths. She joined the school last Sept at which point he'd finished with his Maths IGCSE.

OP posts:
Original poster
MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 02/02/2012 12:57

It is as a means to an end. He ISN'T passionate about Maths.

OP posts:
Amaretti · 02/02/2012 12:59

Well that's fine. But currently he needs to convince his teacher that he is going to work hard.

Original poster
MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 02/02/2012 13:04

Amaretti - but why? He doesn't need to work desp hard at it (unless he wants to) as he doesn't need to for his own purposes.

A very important lifeskill is prioritising what you need to get to the next place, then doing it.

OP posts:
Moredofbumsnet · 02/02/2012 14:17

Has he considered doing A/S further maths? You do maths A2 and half the further maths modules for Further A/S

Amaretti · 02/02/2012 15:23

But another important life skill is impressing those above you so that you get to the next place you want to go!

malinois · 02/02/2012 15:37

I did Maths and FM (and Phys and Chem) and was never passionate about maths. It was simply a means to an end, which in my case was Physics. I've never found maths particularly hard, merely tedious.

FM offers a definite advantage in the first few weeks a Physics, Engineering or Maths degree however I'm very surprised to see it as a requirement for an Economics degree - the maths behind economics really isn't particularly advanced.

cricketballs · 02/02/2012 17:20

in terms of the options being 100% decided upon now - what would the school do if a student did not gain the required grade for a particular subject and they had to choice another? I really think your ds and his peers are not being given a clear choice in terms of subjects.

I have worked in a number of schools with a 6th form and whilst an 'idea' of what subjects students were thinking about no firm decision was needed until after the results published for GCSE. The timetabling thing is not really an issue as the timetable is already done in principle and it is just the groups that needed to be confirmed.

I have often seen students who have achieved far higher in a subject than they were predicted change their AS subjects and the reverse, in fact it happens a lot every year. The other issue is during the exams/summer the kids often have a change of heart about their future.....

Takver · 02/02/2012 17:39

malinois, have you studied economics recently? I studied economics a looong time ago, and even then not having further maths (which wasn't offered at my school) was a definite disadvantage. These days I know that many Cambridge colleges won't accept people onto the course without it.

Original poster
MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 02/02/2012 19:23

For Economics at LSE, you absolutely have to have sat FM where it's offered at your school. But it would not form part of any offer beyond them asking for a pass where it is a fourth A level. So if he offered Maths, Econ, Physics and FM their offer would be A*AA and a pass in the further maths. But he WOULD NOT be in with a shout for their course had he not sat FM. Other institutions are similar.

Anyway, he's filled in his form now, opting for FM. I hope the head of maths will support his choice (I think he will).

OP posts:
Original poster
MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 02/02/2012 19:27

Ameretti - Actually the most important lifeskill is to kick against arbitrary justice. He's got the A in Maths and wants to do Further Maths. The sixth form prospectus clearly states the conditions ( A at IGCSE) . That should be the end of it. Otherwise why do they not state in the sixth form choices booklet that there are further unwritten, unquantifiable conditions attached.

OP posts:
ucasnewbie · 02/02/2012 19:49

DC applying for economics this year. He has got offers from v good universities without FM but rejected from Cambridge where 90% of offers are made to applicants with FM, so it would have been helpful there. But he didn't want to spend half his time doing maths at A2....

Original poster
MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 02/02/2012 21:47

ucasnewbie - thanks and well done to your son. Do you mind saying where he got offers from, without FM?

OP posts:
Dozer · 02/02/2012 23:16

I did further maths,was just more and different, rather than harder maths. If you're good at maths you're good at maths, I was good but never going to continue to degree level, and really enjoyed it.

Dozer · 02/02/2012 23:19

In our class there was one guy who was amazing, he went to oxford to do maths, I got a good grade and one girl, who'd had a C in maths gcse, got a D (B in maths), she went onto become a management accountant and earns the most!

Milliways · 02/02/2012 23:52

DS's school offer Maths with Further Maths in ONE option block for top set, Maths with AS further Maths (over 2 years) for most and Just Maths for the rest. Almost all boys take Maths though (Grammar school).

DS was worried about any Further Maths, but doing the AS over 2 years is hardly and extra work and he is finding it all very manageable - whereas those doing both in one block are having a very hard time. (He got A* Maths GCSE and A for Ad Maths last year).

malinois · 03/02/2012 11:01

Takver - no I haven't studied economics recently, or indeed at all. My prejudices are based purely on the fact that a scrap of sophomoric mathematical inanity such as the Black-Scholes equation can win you a Nobel Prize in Economics, suggesting to me that the standard of mathematics in the dismal 'science' is really not very high at all.

Lilymaid · 03/02/2012 13:05

The maths element of the more rigorous degrees is not to be underestimated. I've one DS studying for a BSc and an older DS with a very recent MSc and neither they nor their fellow students have found the maths elements easy (not did DH who has looked at their work).

ucasnewbie · 03/02/2012 13:33

MrsJAlfredPrufrock - will send you pm.

MyCatsHaveOpposableThumbs · 03/02/2012 15:12

Dozer, I have an English degree and ended up as a Management Accountant! ( I don't earn megabucks though!) All my jobs have involved being able to see the relationships and trends across groups of figures, and work out how best to explain that to non-accounting colleagues. Oh, and having an organised mind!

Takver · 03/02/2012 17:25

malinois to be absolutely honest, I'm prejudiced against maths heavy economics myself - not on grounds of the quality of the maths, but the quality of the economics (and resulting policy prescriptions).

However, unfortunately, these days at LSE and Cambridge at least the mathematicians are in the ascendant and therefore if you want to study there, you have to put up with it.