Talk to me about DS going to University: yay or nay?

[IDK]

DS is in Year12 doing humanities subjects. He has no idea what he wants to do for a living. He is intelligent but not academic eg for one of his GCSE he got a D for coursework because he didn't apply himself but got A* in the exam. He is a strong character; a leader; a persuader. I can see him doing a sales or negotiating job. I can't see him being a grey suit.

In the past I would have encouraged him to go to university so he has three years to grow up and find himself but now that tuition fees are so high I am changing my mind. Unless you know that you are aiming for a job that only takes graduates, does going to University make sense any more?

I am a recent mature student at one stage the only one on the course. In my experience many boys however able they might be piss it up the wall at uni and emerge with a third at best and a pass at worst. My DS1 is clever but like yours does not apply himself. I am not mad about the idea of him generating a massive debt and emerging with a third rate grade at degree level. I suspect in this day and age of limited work prospects a third/pass is not going to be worth the paper it is written on.
Having said this some boys do do well and do apply themselves and even those who do not seem to have done this at school and as a friends whose son will go to uni next year said what are the alternatives? IME the boys that did better had taken a gap year sometimes a gap two/three years and got pissing it up the wall out of their systems!

As a university teacher I would advocate a year of pissing up the wall elsewhere first. University is only going to be worthwhile if he applies himself; you get out what you put in. As a way of finding yourself I would say it is rather over-priced these days. If it is right for him and he gets and Education out of it then that is priceless. If he applies himself and gets a good degree, that is still marketable. If he scrapes a third and never understands what he is there for, then I'd say that money could be spent better in other ways.

I would suggest a year out, deferring a university place, hopefully getting a job and earning some money or volunteer work if he can' find a job. i think a year in the real world might help him focus a bit on what he wants and motivate him if he does decide to go to university (and help him earn some money for university living)

I have various relations who got so-so A level grades, went to so-so Unis, graduated with so-so degrees and got so-so jobs that, in a different time and place, wouldn't be asking for a degree.

Regretably we live in a world where a job that 20 years ago would require A levels now ask for a degree simply because of more youths graduating albeit with degrees in Media Relations and Women Studies :)

To me, going to university makes enormous sense if you are going to get something out of it. To me "something" doesn't have to be fitting a distinct job description, or walking straight into a well paid job, it can also be about learning to think, becoming a more flexible person. But there has to be something. Nothing sadder than seeing a student approaching their third year and still not seem to know what they are doing there.

some undergraduate courses are funded (usually NHS professions such as speech therapy, nursing etc) but there may be others that your ds would consider

Perhaps look at sponsorships from the big companies. Notgoingtouni is a good site for finding out what the alternatives are.

Personally I'd say go, as PushyDad says, so many jobs now ask for a degree when in the past they wouldn't have, unless you have some decent work experience behind you (hard to find theses days) you could easily find you'll be at a disadvantage in many employment sectors.

What about a company that puts an employee through uni one day a week whilst they work the other four days?

I could have written your post! DS1 has decided not to even try to go to uni. He wavered a month ago as various people he met at parties over Christmas said that it was the best time of their life, etc. He knows that he is one to go out if someone invites him. His social life is very important to him. We did start to look about him going to uni in Europe, instead. Maybe he will still want to do that as it won't cost nearly as much.

The cost is a main deterrent, though. We can't afford to support him. He will have to pay for everything himself. He is staying on for A levels and now has an idea of what he wants to do - yay!

You say in your OP that your DS is very persuasive. Does he have a part-time job in which to hone these skills? He could maybe then realise what is more important to him - working or going to uni. It could help him make up his mind.

As I understand it degree courses out of the UK have to be paid for upfront - likewise the students living expenses. No loans or grants are available. Cheaper, certainly, if you can afford to do it from savings etc. but for those who need to borrow that route isn't possible.
I'd like to think I was wrong about this if anyone knows better?

Having spoken to recent graduates, I think the university experience is very different than in my day. Students are far more focussed and accept that they are there not only to study, but to build a good CV.

Would your DS be swayed by those around him, OP, and perhaps make good use of his time there?

Marking spot to look for answers. You could have been describing my ds in your OP, IDK. What I don't know (nor him, it's not just me fretting) is what jobs there are available for lads qualified to A-level but not quite self disciplined enough for university, nowadays, and how you find out about them all.

I am thinking along these lines too. I have always just assumed ds would go to uni but now am not so sure. Although was looking forward to 3 yrs peace!

My ds was doing A levels last eyar and hated the college and the subjects. He switched to another college and is doing a BTEC which is very similar to what my brother did at university.(He is a film editor) The tutor also says that this course which is pre university entry level covers the same ground as the degree he did. It is quite scary the thought of the whole jobs thing in this economic situation. My ds can't even find a p/time job

As a university lecturer in a humanities subject, I'd say he would be wasting his time and money on a humanities degree at this stage. To succeed, students have to be self-motivating, willing to apply themselves, and able to take the initiative. Given what you say about his strengths, he might well get a lot out of a humanities degree when he's matured a bit.

I would say that doing a humanities subject when he doesn't know what to do is a waste of time and money.
My DS did a science subject and didn't know what to do.
He finished and tried lots of different avenues but there was always someone better. He had gone right through the system and suddenly met the real world and it is tough.
In the end he just got a job and that led on to other things. I think he could have done the whole thing without university-he disagrees because he had a wonderful 3 years. I think it was an expensive finishing school!

I would say wait-mature a bit-get out in the world and then see.

Read the letter in yesterday's Sunday Times review section/education. See how little teaching/contact time kids get. They need to be self-motivated beyond belief.

I haven't seen that letter iseenodust (love the name!) but I can imagine it. It is a humpty-dumpty world where they get charged so much for not being taught.
The BBC are reporting that University applications by the English are down by nearly 10% although some of the drop is off-set by increases in non-EU applicants esp Far East.

Being taught and learning are not the same thing! Our students get on average 9-12 hours of very high-quality, intensively prepared contact time per week. University guidance says that they should do an absolute minimum of 2 hours preparation for every contact hour, and in reading-, thinking- and writing-intensive subjects like most of the Humanities, that's about right. Students who are unable or unwilling to take responsibility for themselves in that independent study aspect of the degree are unlikely to thrive.

You don't really want your son to go to university to have notes about the causes of the Second World War dictated to him for him to learn and parrot off do you? Because that is the model in many of the subjects that have much more contact time. Necessary for Law, perhaps, where there is an agreed body of knowledge that students have to stuff into their heads. But inane and inappropriate for humanities.

Part of my job involves dealing with students who are failing, not engaging or are unhappy about the course they have chosen.

In the majority of the cases I see, I would say that not enough time had been spent considering what course to chose and where to study it. My uni allows quite a lot of course changes, but many of these invole repeating the first year so not a cheap option.

In my experience, the students that get the most out of uni are the ones who either have a passion for a subject and want to learn or have a definite career in mind. Those that drift in, find it much more difficult and in some cases leave with a poor result.

Better to take a few years out to think about his future than rush into a poor decision.

I can't think there is anything wrong with humanities courses running on a limited number of contact hours: if we had more taught classes the students simply wouldn't have the time for the amount of reading and writing they need to do to develop their independence. And if they did not have time to work independently they would not develop the transferable skills which employers are looking for in a good humanities graduate, namely the skills to work independently.

Let's face it, most employers who take on a First Class history graduate don't do it because they want up-to-date information about the Peasants Revolt. They do it because they want someone who can cope with large quantities of information, who reads quickly and writes well, who is willing to think for themselves, who is organised and can motivate themselves and who is used to working independently. There are plenty of jobs that require that kind of skills set and that kind of flexibility rather than a repertoire of facts.

Developing a new teaching style through which students were taught every aspect of the course by teachers would not do anything to prepare them for the kind of career a humanities graduate might reasonably be looking at: it would be turning them into a product that nobody wants.

The people who proclaim that students ought to be entitled to X no of teaching hours because they are paying don't realise that what you actually "buy" as a student is a) an education that will make you grow and develop as a person b) a qualification that employers are going to want. Neither of those goals would be fulfilled if we redesigned the university courses to make them into fact-feeding factories. The market for facts on the Peasants Revolt is reallly very limited.

What is wrong is assuming that this is a style of working that is going to be right for everybody. There are plenty of people in this world for whom a humanities course is simply not the right thing. And even more young people for whom it is not the right thing at that particular moment in time.

See how things are for your DS in Y13, OP. I've been surprised at how much my DS, now in Y13, has matured since a year ago. He, too, is studying humanities subjects and does intend to go to university.

Your DS will have till next January to submit his UCAS form. He might seem like a different boy then.

No-one suggested academics teaching all week but in the letter to which I referred the student had received 4 hours contact time a week in the 1st term of her 1st year - studying social policy at what they termed a 'top class' university.

Anecdotally from friends I would as a parent check throughly the dropped out/asked to leave rate of any course at the end of year1.

Is there any reason why your DS shouldn't take a few years out of education & think about what he wants to do? If he then chooses to come back to uni as a mature student he'll probably put a lot more into the course, especially if he's done badly paid/hard work jobs in the interim! Plenty of 'mature students' at 23/24 are young enough to have fun & not have ties, but old enough to have figured out why they are at uni & make the most of it.

And of course he might find a job he loves without a degree - I agree that it seems foolish these days to drift into a course just as the 'done thing'

Interesting comment #iseenodust, neither I nor cory said anything about academics' workloads, and you can't in fact infer anything about them from our comments.

4 hours is inadequate, I agree, and surprising to me - as I said in my post, it would not be possible at my (RG) university. Nor would it at any of the other universities where I've worked or been an external examiner (although it would at Oxbridge, UCL, and LSE, widely considered the top of the top in this country, because of the persistence of the tutorial system there).

In terms of the bigger picture, I do think it is important to challenge views like the ones reflected in IDK's comment that 'they get charged so much for not being taught', as I think such misunderstandings about how high-level learning works don't do students any favours.

I do think it is important to challenge views like the ones reflected in IDK's comment that 'they get charged so much for not being taught', as I think such misunderstandings about how high-level learning works don't do students any favours.

So go on then: do your sales pitch! What are they learning in three years at University that they wouldn't learn in the world of work with a good employer who arranges relevant training?