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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Winchester College - Best School

95 replies

Angelscakes42 · 06/01/2012 17:00

Hope this helps! My son has done his first term at Winchester College. Academically, we are so impressed with WC and the housemaster approach, support for settling my DS . I am hoping WC will take my youngest son in 2014!. Winchester College is not for the light hearted, many very intellectual and naturally bright boys, which come from abroad. Music is excellent. There is roughly about 2 and half hours off Toy Time (Prep), every night. We,think IGCSE is the way forward and Cambridge Pre U. Over all my son is very happy and hopefully he will go onto Harvard from here. Winchester Scholarship, majority off these papers are written by the master of WC and these boarder line beyond AS papers, preparation is a minimum of 2/3 years. My youngest son personnel tutor (old Etonian - Scholar) mentioned that you should reach 90% on common entrance by the time your son is eleven,(2/3 years before entrance) before even preparing for scholarship.

OP posts:
bibbitybobbityhat · 27/01/2012 15:15

Loving this hilarious thread.

Pagwatch · 27/01/2012 15:24
Grin

I went to benson primary school. It was indeed the best primary school in benson.

Hths

helpyourself · 27/01/2012 15:32

Best School if you're not opposed to Private Education. Or Single sex. And you want Boarding.

scaryteacher · 27/01/2012 16:22

'Winchester best school for those with £30K in spare change a year."' to which you must add; for boys. I note St Swithins was on a par with Win Coll, if not higher in the league table.

peteneras · 27/01/2012 23:59

Can't open your link singersgirl, but what has Eton in Windsor and Maidenhead got to do with this thread about Winchester College in Hampshire? Confused

?Everyone knows that those tables are compiled in a misleading way.?

Hmm . . . don?t know why they bother to compile it then. But ya, never take these tables, any table, as gospel truth. If you?re happy where your child is, that?s what counts.

But very honestly, Winchester College IS A VERY GOOD SCHOOL. In fact, Eton was built in the image of Winchester, which was already there almost half a century before Eton and the first few scholars in Eton were actually nicked from Winchester! Grin

peteneras · 28/01/2012 00:20

I don't know how these tables are compiled scaryteacher, personally I don't care. I look at it once and in 5 minutes I forget which is the top school(s). You're right, on the one hand you've got IGCSE's which is supposed to be more challengling than GCSE's and then you've got the different examination boards, apparently some boards are easier to score than others.

Another thing, top independent schools have in the past few years refused to release their results citing the nonsense that is the league tables, how then does the BBC and others manage to include these indie schools?

gbxpat · 28/01/2012 19:35

I would like to share my thoughts on the WC scholarship exams and hopefully put a few things in the right perspective.

Lengthy dedicated preparation is probably not going to help that much since the Election papers are not really testing for knowledge but they tease out hints of thinking capacity, depth of curiosity and perhaps degree of geekiness. The child needs to be able see the world around him differently and question "accepted wisdom" (even if that still prevails and even if it means rough-rocking the boat). To me, that may well be the biggest difference between EC and WC and the kind of boys they look for. Just 2-3 years of preparation will not work if that was for the sole purpose of getting "elected", but 2-3 years of learning for them is way too long. In fact, I suggest 9-month absolute maximum to avoid burn-out.

It is probably accurate to say that the knowledge required to ace the exams would have been learnt by the age of 9-10. I would say a 10 year-old acing an age-appropriate exam is probably a good starting point, but I think the expectation of having an 11 year-old acing the common entrance is neither necessary nor pertinent. Given enough feeding and enough practice questions, many can and will do just that, but it will not help with a question seeking a well-argued opinion about Japan's preparation for a tsunami and the handling of its aftermath, nor finding the demonstration of number theory manifested inside two simple additions. Acing the Common Entrance at 11 will almost certainly help towards acing the Common Entrance Scholarship exam though.

The Election has four compulsory papers and three or more option papers. The compulsory papers are General 1 (no parent has seen one but said to be like an IQ and general "awareness" test), English, Science, Maths 1, and the electives (min of 3 "but 4 is reasonable") are General 2, Maths 2, History, Geography, French, Latin and Ancient Greek.

Many of these papers have questions that do not have right or wrong answers or often the questions are incomplete so that candidates have to come up with a well thought out and well debated opinion and justifications for the assumptions used for the missing pieces to complete the question. When I saw them for the first time, my knee-jerk impression was a kid's version of the old Cambridge Entrance papers. There are lots of grey areas and topical current affairs derived questions.

For maths as an example, many of the questions require mathematical knowledge and skills a 9-10 year old would have already learnt, but they are typically put in such a way that requires not just a clear head and sharp mind, but a genuine understanding of the concepts and reasons behind the maths. Again, from direct experience, the vast majority of schools and even well respected tutors focus on teaching methods and knowledge rather than understanding - these questions are suddenly perceived to be ultra-difficult. It is shocking that some maths teachers and tutors could not solve some of these problems. Also, many questions have several very different ways of getting to the answers.

Science has a practical section. The experiments are perhaps to do with quite advanced topics and theories, but they give you step by step instructions and remove all the complexity a 12-13 year old would not have come across. Then they ask you to speculate explanations and theorise the results/findings.

Languages are again about understanding them enough to grasp subtle meanings and unusual vocabulary but there is clearly no expectation of getting the child to study dictionaries. However, a wide exposure to a diversity of topics, books, genre would definitely help - I suspect they are looking for hints/evidence of curiosity here too.

As for Gen 2, History and Geography, interpretation of data and ability to speculate anything with a solid basis is important. The opinions required are typically not what you could read in a book or news article and reuse.

The frustrating part is that most of us grew up being tested for knowledge and there is really not much anyone can teach a kid for these papers. Doing a couple of past papers will definitely help immunise the child against the shock factor and get used to the style. The topics, questions and problems are just unpredictable and left-field (which can be fun to those with the right attitude and mindset I imagine).

Most importantly, it is about ensuring that he really understands the most basic concepts so well that he could explain them to say his younger siblings. Then let him chill, spent time on his hobbies, discovers things to satisfy his curiosity and spend time on the most ridiculous questions he has to ask about the most trivial and childish subjects. None of the papers will benefit from studying or regular tutoring. It would be too cruel to make an 11 year-old work for a 90+ score in the 13+ exams as a prerequisite for WC Election.

PetiteGrenouille · 28/01/2012 22:25

To add to the above message, I know a boy who scored averagely on his WC Election papers but was given the scholarship on the basis of his interview. He was a worthy candidate but not all prep schools prepare as well as others and it was good that the school could see his potential at the interview.

gbxpat · 29/01/2012 04:00

Yes, I totally agree with PetiteGrenouille. The hour-long pre-selection interview and the interview they may request post election exam are important. There is a boy who was told had a near perfect scholarship exam in another big name school in the south found the election "multiple levels harder".

WC prides itself in having a significant part of it curriculum not required and not tested by exams. Div is also a uniquely WC subject which is fairly unstructured learning but structured university tutorial style exploratory discussions covering a wide range of topics and there is a specific focus for each age-year. This is taken to the student level in College (scholars) which is governed by the original WC charter I think.

I suspect that plays a big part in how they choose and how they use the Election. Whoever set the Election exam questions must be extraordinarily brilliant, inquisitive themselves and have plenty of time to think!

Greythorne · 29/01/2012 08:09

Gbxpat
Is that a joke?
I suspect many sentient, educated grown uos woukd be abke to set a exam paper for 12 year olds.

Quattrocento · 29/01/2012 08:19

I'm guessing the OP is not a native English speaker, and is just jolly enthused about Winchester and wants to share the joy.

I understand the general bafflement though, as I suspect most MNers would find this irrelevant. In my situation, my children are older, we live too far away from Winchester and would in any event never consider boarding before 6th form.

A more interesting discussion might be the move by some of the big public schools away from IGCSE and IBAC - article in the Times yesterday. Can't link as it is a subscription only service.

PetiteGrenouille · 29/01/2012 09:41

If you've seen the WC Election then you would not agree with your comment Greythorne.

happygardening · 29/01/2012 09:48

Quattrocento if you feel baffled about the the OP and think there are more interesting topics for discussion why read or post on this thread?
Why not start your own thread? I agree "the move by some of the big public schools away from IGCSE and IBAC" would be much more interesting as Win Coll has of late been discussed to death. Although you may be interested to know that Win Coll is I believe the only school in the UK to only offer the much harder Pre U! A levels are only offered in two subjects DT and biology I have no idea why the latter.

Greythorne · 29/01/2012 09:49

Look, it might be a very tough exam for the boys sitting it, but let's not kid ourselves that a great many teachers and educated adukts coukd set the exam questions.
This mythology about Win Coll on MN is really going too far.

Greythorne · 29/01/2012 09:59

I sat the Oxford General exam in 1990 and it was full of off the wall philosophical questions which stretched students well beyond A level preparation. Those questions often entered exam folklore, too. Does not mean they were paryicularly hard to set. Yes, they were hard ro answer (and I wll always remember the wording of the exam paper: "students may attempt 4 questions" not "may asnwer", the clue is in the wording!)

Any member of my family given half an hour's warning could draft tricky, challenging Oxford-style questions. I can't imagine that Win Coll's questions for 12 year olds can only be set by those who are "extraordinarily brilliant".

Win Coll is undoubtedly a great school, but really, let's not lose all perspective.

teacherwith2kids · 29/01/2012 10:04

'Best' is such a bizarre concept in schools.

In a 'technical' sense, the best secondary school would be one that could take ANY child, from ANY background, with no selection whatever at the point of entry and with no discrimination on the basis of ability to pay, and get every single child to achieve very high exam results at 16 and 18.

In a 'personal' sense, the 'best' school for a given family is the school in which their child is valued, has friends, and achieves their full potential academically - and where they have the opportunity to achieve in non-academic ways such as sport or music, either within the school walls or by having excellent community facilities nearby.

Winchester College may be the best school for the OP in the 'personal' sense. It is not, of course, the best school in the 'technical' sense as it takes in exceptionally bright children (the vast majority from backgrounds that are priviledged in terms of wealth, and the rest who are priviledged in terms of the value they place on education) and it is not clear how well they would do with a more mixed cohort in terms of ability, SEN or background.

seeker · 29/01/2012 10:08

Agreed. There isn't a special, more highly evolved species of human either setting or taking these tests!

Oh, and for what it's worth ( very little, I realise) a friend's child has been utterly miserable at Winchester. Entirely the wrong school for him, and has been since day one, however family tradition has decreed that he stays. Horses for courses.

happygardening · 29/01/2012 10:15

The point is that some schools suit one child but not another. DS1 is at an excellent local comp. is very happy and doing well DS2 would of hated it. The reason there are so many posting on MN about schools whether independent or state is that parents are desperate to find the "right" school for their DC's. In a way its pointless asking other peoples opinions because one mans heaven is another man hell! Horror stories about any where will always abound.

charitygirl · 29/01/2012 10:44

This bonkers thread is the logical end point of the many bonkers threads about top public schools, populated by parents who know a truly freaky amount about their DC's school and all their 'rivals'. You all sound unhinged!

I went to a 'top' day school, and I think I can safely say my parents never got so obsessed. Is it a boarding thing?

Trix2323 · 29/01/2012 11:31

gbexpat, your insight into the WC papers are most enlightening and helpful.

Bink · 29/01/2012 12:05

Not to engage with the objectively 'good' or not bit, but just on Election/whys & wherefores - my ds is doing it, not because we expect him to get a scholarship but (as in fact is the case with most of the Election candidates, most of whom won't get a scholarship but nearly all of which will be accepted as ordinary pupils) the idea is that the style of exam will suit his peculiar autodidact mind better than more conventional ones do.

They are looking for a certain type - who engages with things for their own academic sake, not because they're being taught it - those types (like ds) are often a bit of a problem in more conventional schools, the sort who sit at the back of the class immersed in the textbook and utterly disengaged from the lesson. Indeed WC is the only school that want him - and Election was their suggestion, not our idea. Ds immerses himself in maths, science, IT, commerce - goes through New Scientist, Week, Economist, Wired, every issue, because he wants to; but doing an ordinary RS (eg) essay, even when he knows everything he's meant to put, is torture. He's only interested in what he's interested in, and he's intensely interested in that. He spent a train trip recently covering pages with diagrams of every organic molecule he could think of.

If WC find what they want at Election, there are significant scholarships available, which means that those boys come from all sorts of backgrounds - not the elitist stereotype people often think of for public school.

For info, here is an example of a further maths past question (which for ds is his idea of fun, and which I couldn't start to do):

"The energy released by an earthquake used to be measured by the Richter Scale. For every increase of one on the scale the earthquake is ten times more powerful, e.g., 4 on the scale is 100 times more powerful than 2 on the scale.

How much more powerful is a 6.3 earthquake than a 2.3 earthquake?

One earthquake measures 2 on the Richter Scale. A second one is ten thousand times more powerful.

What does it measure on the scale?

Earthquake P measures 4 on the Richter scale. Earthquake Q measures 4.5 and earthquake R measures 5. Q is x times more powerful than P.

Earthquake R is how much more powerful than Q?
Circle which answer is correct:
5 x 10 10/9

Earthquake R is how much more powerful than P?

What is the value of x?"

gramercy · 29/01/2012 13:06

Let us not forget that Winchester, just as other fee-paying schools, need fee payers!

From reading MN one could get the idea that scholarships and bursaries are flung out like confetti and only a few mugs end up paying. If Winchester only accepted those pupils of the utmost brilliance they'd have quite a few empty seats (or beds, in their case). Recently there has been a significant rise at Winchester (and no doubt at other public schools too) in the number of foreign boys - particularly Chinese. I'm sure these boys are very clever, but I doubt whether they are acing all aspects of the entrance exam.

seeker · 29/01/2012 13:11

Are they not, gramercy? I though all independent schools were three quarters filled with the children of shelf stackers and hairdressers on full bursaries.

MollieO · 29/01/2012 13:13

I think you are spot on gramercy. I posted on the Wellington thread that the headmaster at Wellington is willing to consider candidates with low CE scores if they are bringing something to school life - eg excelling in sports or music. I can't believe every pupil at Winchester is super bright.

PutThatCatOutNow · 29/01/2012 13:16

It's a bit off the topic of the thread, but what is the point of IGCSE's and the PreU? DD does a couple of IGCSE's and all it seems to do is make the school look bad as they aren't included in the league tables! Surely children doing these so called 'harder' exams are not at any advantage due to the fact that the exams are not universally offered? So who gains from doing them?
Agree with the comment about the exam results being a reflection of the school's intake, would they still get the same results if they weren't selective? Also, as I said before, what do girls do if they want to go to the 'best' school? Obviously they can't go to Win Coll...

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