Would a person need to be officially GnT to consider Oxford?

[ZombiesAtYourCervix]

D1 is 15 and has decided that's where she is going. She is nice, sweet and hardworking but not brilliantly clever (predicted mostly As at GCSE). She just asked if she could go to an open day sometime to have a look around (very forward planning I know but that's her)

DO I encourage her or redirect her?

Completely wrong Ella I've nowhere at all suggested BoffinMum is a liar. I don't for a moment think she is. She said she couldn't say which discipline she taught in as she would 'out' herself so her comment about colleagues supporting her surprised me, that's all. I believe accuracy is helpful to applicants and I'm not the first on the thread to make the point.

My own view happens to be that it's a good idea to be realistic about the grades the university usually requires. There's not a single college that's particularly coy about the competition on the official boards and dumbing it down has little point. I've no idea who BM has or hasn't helped Milliways but it doesn't alter the fact of what grades the vast majority of applicants have to have. Of course there are bound to be exceptions, even short of Special Access. But the grades BM quoted just aren't the norm and don't actually even approach the norm. This kind of thing is so easy to prove which is where what the colleges say officially is helpful. It's not one MNer v another; I've deferred to the website, which gives a very clear picture indeed for anyone who cares to read it rather than spend time slagging me off.

The colleges are trying to encourage applicants not deter them as the outreach officers are too, so what they say needs to be read and listened too in that light. Nowhere is the message conveyed that a student can make a competitive application with no A*'s at GCSE, a couple of A's at AS and AAB at A2. Nowhere except for here. It's not really a hanging offence to point it out.

Nope Ella, just to check what my posts were susceptible of being construed as I've re-read them and can't see any justification for being accused of making accusations of lying.

I'm sticking to my guns but so what?

listened to in that light

But surely the only reason to claim you're right and she's wrong is if you don't believe she really does Cambridge admissions? It does come across oddly to me, I have to say.

That doesn't follow at all.

I believe BoffinMum is simply trying to encourage and buoy up applicants but has gone too far into the realms of the unreal, Special Access apart.

Thanks for clarifying.

I agree with Yellowstone.

I am sure in special circumstances slightly lower grades may be acceptable for those who apply and who may use the 'Special Access Scheme' , but, in reality, most students who apply to Oxbridge should be aiming for the highest grades.

I think BoffinMum is absolutely right to point out that some students may be accepted with lower grades but for the vast majority who are looking to apply to Oxbridge, they need to be aiming for the top grades to even get a look in and it is slightly misleading to suggest otherwise, other than to point out that in some circumstances, and quite rightly, offers are occasionally made to those with lower grades.

"sleuthing", yellowstone - what's that? If I'm missing facts it's because I haven't bothered to look for them. A few things may stick in your mind if someone happens to crop up on several of the same threads or is, for example, outstandingly rude.

If your child is applying from public school or a leading grammar school interviewers have high expectations and may give you a higher offer. The vast majority of those admitted to both Oxford and Cambridge come from one of those groups and will have high grades. However if you get an offer depends on your perfomance in any of the university exams and how well you do at interview. BoffinMum pointed out you didn't have to have 7A*s, the one website I bothered to look at confirmed it, it's the message I'd pass on.

For someone who claimed not to want to see good candidates deterred you have a strange way of proceding. I don't have a personal interest in this, as even if this round went badly my child prefers Oxford, so I'm leaving this thread.

I think the entire point is that BoffinMum went way beyond saying 7A*'s are not required to quoting grades where stars simply didn't feature. That doesn't reflect reality and Trinity says that in terms. Trinity is not directing its advice solely to public school and leading grammar students, I can't see why it should be so contentious. Trinity's advice is of course mirrored elsewhere.

I think if there's a difference of opinion on MN it helps to go to an external and reliable source.

I think anyone who has the grades and loves their subject should apply and wish the DC well.

Applying is as much about mental attitude and resilience as about academics: the family needs to be able to deal with rejection and success.

Now here is something interesting which has certainly emerged since my DD started: I think extra currics are important: not to get the place
(interviews only ask about the subject) but because once there, life is really busy and the many many social and extra curricular opportunities are fantastic and so it is good if the DC already has practice with time management and making choices because they hit the ground running so could flounder if they haven't had a bit of experience with that side of things beforehand. Thats the real reason they need to be bright, to cope with all the demands on their time!

The academics once there are, tbh, straightforward, esp as they have frequent tutorials with a very high staff pupil ratio and all the students encourage each other. Its actually a lot harder work at other universities where tutor time is not so structured or frequent.

There are national criteria for G n T, (see the dfes website) some are subjective ( eg peer recommendation) and NAGTY (now disbanded) also had more objective criteria.

Key Stage 2 SATS: combined raw score in the national top 5% in English and maths. You can access this information from: www.keytosuccess.dfes.gov.uk/schools
? Key Stage 3 SATs ? an examined Level 8 in mathematics or a level 8 teacher assessment in another subject at the end of year 9 (For talent subjects please see talent guidelines)
? Cognitive Ability Test 3 ? A Standardised Age Score of 129 or above in one battery (Verbal Reasoning, Non- Verbal Reasoning, or Quantitative Reasoning)
? Midyis Test ? A Standardised Age Score of 129 or above in one battery (Maths, Non-Verbal Reasoning Or Vocabulary)
? Yellis ? Standardised Age Score mean of 126 or above
? World Class Tests (mathematics or problem solving) ? merit or distinction
? NFER Verbal Reasoning and Non-Verbal Reasoning Series ? standardised age mean score of 129 or above
? Test of general cognitive ability administered by a chartered educational psychologist (e.g. WISC, Stanford-Binet, BAS) ? WISC or Stanford-Binet performance at or above 95th percentile. BAS GCA standardised score of 126 or above.
? GCSE / GNVQ ? Capped point score from the best 8 subjects of 58 points or above (where A = 8 points, A = 7 points etc.) or score of 428 or above (where A = 58 points, A = 52 points etc.)
? Other test allied to university entrance (e.g. TGA) ? performance at or above 95th percentile.

It can be useful to get objective evidence though I have to say that in terms of Oxford entry it made no difference: DS school didn't put the NAGTY membership in my DS reference (they said it wasn't important) and he was too modest to put it in his PS and he got rejected anyway even though on the 97th percentile in the entrance exam and flawless grades. He loves London and can always apply for postgrad if he wants to. So anyway I do think its good to apply but also be prepared not to get in!

The admissions tutors do a good job. There are all sorts there: a slight northern accent wouldn't be noticed amongst the slight welsh, slight devon, slight russian accents etc
These are the data on admissions by local authority

www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/oxbridge-elitism-oxford-cambridge-race-class?intcmp=239

Anyway the main thing is to let the state school pupils know to apply to the richer colleges because they help such a lot with expenses!

Oxford is heaven for a state school child because the libraries are within 3 mins walk max, they have the books, enough for all the students! the internet access is free, the staff pupil ratio is unbelievable, they wont get bullied for liking books, the other students are all great fun, they will have enough money to socialise in a way which just isn't possible in a more expensive university town.

It is heaven for a public school child too, but they will be used to it, and for all the bright children it is very healthy for them to be with other bright children and realise they are not the only bright ones in the universe. They are also allowed to have geeky conversations and they don't have to pretend! Also they all understand each others banter and don't have to slow down! And they all understand about boredom and needing to do lots of stuff!

These are the LEA data as a spread sheet

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdHF0WnNfTE1xZVU4YnhnWlZJbGVyTHc&hl=en#gid=0

The matriculation where they all put on white shirts and funny gowns is inspired: no designer clothing, no primark, so it brings home that now they are on a level, all at the same place with the same opportunities.