More of a WWYD actually- College now not offering 2 of the IB subjects that DD1 wanted to do

[duchesse]

DD is supposed to be starting the IB at our local 6th form college in a couple of weeks. She wanted to do Maths, Physics & Chemistry at higher level, and English, French and Philosophy at standard.

Yesterday at enrollment, the college tutor announced that they are now not doing Maths at higher level, and not philosophy at all. They have come up with a cunning wheeze instead of making those that wanted higher maths do a maths A level instead, taking the exams in the January session (ie two terms shorter than usual), then cramming Maths studies (aka Maths for the non-mathematical) into the Jan-May period in time for the exam.

DD is very upset about this- she feels that maths studies will be a waste of time for her since it is barely more than a GCSE, which she just took. She's not opposed to doing History instead of Philosophy but it is looking as though the syllabus is the same as the GCSE she just took (although probably in more depth) and is dreading doing same topics for another two years.

She and I both feel that they are just doing Maths studies for easy points rather than because they feel the students will benefit from it, and that worries me about the ethos of the course. Is it just going to be about exams?

The other problem is that whilst former school goes back on Thursday 1st Sept, college does not begin until September 12th, meaning that if she decides it's not going to work out at the college, she'll already have missed 2 weeks at least of term at school if she has to go back there.

She could go back to her former (fee-paying) school and do A levels, go to the fee-paying school her sister is at and do the AQA Baccalaureate which is similar to the IB but uses A levels as its base. Or she could go along with what the college has planned. Financially we cannot afford to send her to an IB school abroad- we cannot really afford to send her back to her old school either, but her grandmother has offered to help with fees if she does need to go back.

WWYD?

[Yellowstone]

goinggetstough I just asked about UCAS, not having had a DC move schools after GCSE, so haven't taken in the detail on that part of the form.

I happen to know duchesse's DD's GCSE old school well, also the college her DD is intending to join. The disparity is huge, so I just hoped that GCSE's were always judged against the school where they were taught.

Of course it would be unfair any other way.

[goinggetstough]

yellowstone sorry didn't mean to offend you. I guess I am just slightly sensitive as so many people (not yourself) often assume all private schools are like Eton and all state schools are sink schools which is not actually true in RL.

[duchesse]

ggt- Yellow's DCs' (state) school is more selective and gets better results than my children's selective private school. My children went there because they all failed to get into the other at 11+. Obviously my children's school also has an element of income selection as well, but there are a fair few children from really not well off families (eg single mums who "luckily" only have one child to pay fees for).

[Yellowstone]

duchesse is right about my DC going to a selective school but to be fair it doesn't charge fees and does try very hard to deliver an outreach programme to attract those who wouldn't otherwise think of applying.

Anyhow, this isn't personal at all duchesse because I can see good reason for your DD thinking the IB an attractive option.

[Yellowstone]

Btw duchesse our school gets no credit whatever for being state on the contextual data system. It scores exactly the same as top independents. And some academics deplore grammars equally as much as they do independents, so no advantage there!

[duchesse]

She wanted to be able to carry on with French as half our family lives there and she's hoping to becoming more fluent. She was attracted by the worldwide opportunities from having the IB rather than A levels, not least the potential of going for a term mid-course to another country and still being able to keep the same subjects at the same level (never a given). She likes the theory of knowledge and CAS components. She's quite an all-rounder and didn't feel ready to specialise just yet. The IB seems like an ideal solution for her. I just hope that the admissions people in her chosen universities feel the same, although to be fair she could equally study in the US with the IB.

[thetasigmamum]

I think 10K school fees round here is rather more than an 'element' of income selection. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with leaving the private sector to go to a sixth form college if that is what you want to do for either financial or academic reasons. As I said upthread I've known one young woman who did this for the IB and others who chose to go to the college cos they thought it would be cool. There is no danger of misrepresentation as The college in question only does A levels, IB, and FE, it doesn't teach kids pre-sixth form.

Even taking all that into account though, I'd personally send my kids to the posh school rather than the college, if I was in a position to do so, purely because I wouldn't fancy spotting one of them in the HORDE rampaging down Queen street on the hour every hour and especially at lunchtime. I think that would be uncomfortable for all concerned. :)

[duchesse]

tbh Yellowstone if I were an admissions tutor I would be FAR more impressed by 10 As from a St James pupil than any number of A* from pupils from either of our three schools. I do think that genuinely clever and motivated people can do v well at GCSE despite their surroundings but they still need excellent teaching at A level to be well prepared for university. My best friend at university was extraordinarily lucky to be at an experimental but dreadful school in the 80s that attracted very bright teachers. They encouraged her and her friend to aim for the highest- my friend taught herself and studied independently through A level and got 4 As. Any A levels were virtually unheard of in that school let alone 4 As. But she had a lot of guidance and support from those teachers and she made it.

[duchesse]

sigma- "posh" school kids meanwhile are rampaging down Magd Street, albeit in blazers and chinos...

[thetasigmamum]

duchesse yes :) but I don't live near Magd Street. And I do live round the corner from Queen Street and in the autumn and winter I drive down it most lunchtimes to get to the Quayside to do my run. So I have ample opportunity to see the HORDE and wave to those I know who are part of it (there are often a few). :) I wave out of devilment, cos obv it's embarrassing for them. But if I saw my own kids there that would be another story!

I only used 'posh' to avoid naming the school. I know lots of kids who are either current or past pupils, DD2s best friend goes there and a senior member of staff is the husband of one of my closest friends here. It's a lovely school and all the kids I know who go there are lovely. if we could afford to send all the kids there we probably would. But we can't. I wish your DD nothing but massive success with finding the right course for her, and I'll be very interested, if she does choose the IB at the college, to hear how she finds it.

[Yellowstone]

duchesse correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe I've been anything other than civil to you on MN. Do you have a problem with grammars because I'm getting quite a negative vibe!

Of course 10 A's from St. James' would be hugely impressive but then, on the whole, 10 A's from our school with its larger class sizes and immensely tight budget is far more impressive than 10A's from yours. If one wants to make sweeping generalisations. Which I don't, unless pushed. When I'm pushed, especially when I'm pushed rather unfairly, I tend to fight my corner.

I see very good reasons for a DC finding the IB attractive. It doesn't need justification. I'd still try to dissuade mine but that's irrelevant. I'm not sure why having family in France is relevant either (I too have close family living in the South of France but mine never decamped to the college as a result) and A Levels are no barrier to studying in the US (in fact Harvard is making overtures to various state schools in the UK, keen to attract bright young state schoolers to the US).

I'm with thetasigmamum on where I'd send my kids if I had a choice. I know a lot of kids who've been to your DD2's school and a lot of kids who've been to your DD1's school and several who have decamped to the college. But I'm even happier with where they are now and a little puzzled as to why you seem unnecessarily chippy. You appear to have more choices than me, be glad of it.

[duchesse]

? Confused now.

[Yellowstone]

I'm not sure why. Read your posts.

[duchesse]

I'm just not sure why it's even mildly contentious to think that a candidate from a failing school who picks up a string of As might just conceivably be a better and more attractive candidate than any of our super-selected lot. Especially when you consider than St James is where most of the refugee children from war-torn Afghanistan are sent and that the girls generally haven't had any education at all. I cited the example of my friend as someone who had triumphed over the odds, not just of her family background, but also of her school. Again, not especially contentious to suggest that maybe she is brighter and more motivated than many selected kids in a nice quiet environment.

FWIW I don't think you can coach an unable child to A*. A or B maybe at a pinch. They have to have a bit of something between the ears to get 90-100% on things.

I suspect that few of the parents at my children's school (and I've spoken to a few over the years) would claim to be buying anything other than what you get at your school- a peaceful environment in which to learn, a motivated peer group and decent teachers. With digital resources and a sufficiency of textbooks, you need very little else to get a good result. And most classes at my older children's school have 24-25 pupils in them, so not especially small- even at A level they can be up to 20.

Again I do not see how these musings reflect in any way on your choices, my choices or anyone else's choices nor how they could be taken the wrong way. And that's why I'm baffled about your reaction.

[Yellowstone]

duchesse why did you think it necessary to start saying a kid from St. James' with 10 A's must be better than any kid with any number of A*'s from the school my lot goes to? It was entirely irrelevant and unprovoked! I genuinely can't think why you needed to make a comparison.

Yeah, I know about refugee stuff too. My dad was a refugee froma war torn country. Came here with a mum, a suitcase and nothing else.

[TheBride]

To answer the point about whether she'll be considered a state of private pupil, the answer is two-fold

• Obviously the college to which she applies will be aware that she has a mixed background (private/state) so they'll see the whole picture when deciding on admissions. No advantage/no disadvantage, as it should be.
  

• In terms of the stats issued by the college/University which indicate intake from private or state, she'll be classed as state as that was "port of last call". As these stats just get used by successive governments to berate Oxbridge for their own failings, probably no harm done there.

[thetasigmamum]

Is there not a categorisation of 'mixed'? It is ridiculous to categorise someone who spent 12 years in private education as 'state' on the basis of the final 2 years.

[duchesse]

Second admissions reply in, from Pembroke. A little more mixed, but still positive I think:
Dear [Mr and Mrs duchesse],



Thank you for your email. I am very happy to answer your questions as you make this difficult decision. Replies are interweaved with your questions below:

1. Do you feel that the science courses in the IB are as rigorous as A levels?
   
   
   
   We are happy that the IB science courses are as rigorous as A Levels, though for the physical sciences (and what I mean by physical sciences is if she is a physicist, not a chemist going down the natural sciences physical route) we always like to see Further Maths. The IBO offers Further Maths at Standard Level, but where a school does not offer this (in my experience the majority don't), we would be keen, if possible, to see at least an AS Level in Further Maths to complement the candidate's IB Maths.
   
   
   
   
2. Have you made any offers to IB applying for medicine or the sciences in the last few years, and if so how high do they tend to be? Do candidates tend to meet their offers or not? Would you say that the proportion of IB candidates meeting their offers is similar or lower to A level candidates?
   
   
   
   We have made offers to IB students in both the sciences and Medicine. Offers have tended to be in the range 40-2/45 overall with 776 or 777 at Higher Level. If a candidate is offering Standard Level Further Maths too, we would ask for a 7 in that for the physical natural sciences Tripos. The majority of candidates have met their offers. I'm afraid I have no hard data on how many IB candidates meet their offers compared with A Level candidates, but my experience at Pembroke in the last two years would suggest that the two are broadly comparable.
   
   
   
   
3. Does the college?s proposed solution of adding a maths A level to the mix seem odd to you? How would you as an admissions tutor view it on paper?
   
   
   
   I have seen this before and it would pose no problem for us at all for the candidate to offer such a mixed economy. I would always say to any candidate offering more than the standard range, however (in this case the full IB Diploma plus an A Level, but in other cases it might be 5 A Levels, for example), that they need to be confident in themselves that they can not only satisfy our terms but perform outstandingly across these subjects. For physicists there is also the issue of Further Maths, which I would say is advisable at least to AS Level (not so important for Chemists, Biologists or Medics).
   
   
   
   
4. If you were in our position, what would you encourage your child to do?
   
   
   
   This is difficult. It depends what [your DD] wants to do. In sum, though, the key points I would bear in mind are:
   
   
5. Can [your DD] not just handle but achieve the same very high results a combination of full IB Diploma and Maths A Level as she would doing three or four A Levels? This will mean getting strong IB predictions, and scoring, realistically, for Cambridge, an average of 90%+ across the Maths units she sits in Year 12. For physical natural sciences she will need Maths at Higher Level or A Level. For Medicine, the issue if she just does the IB and not the A Level too, is that she would have only two sciences/Maths at Higher Level. She could be admitted with these, but in practice 97% of our applicants offer three Maths/Sciences at Higher/A Level and have a higher success rate than those offering only two.
   
   
6. Is she considering reading Physics at university? If that is the case you should think about how Further Maths comes into the equation.

[Yellowstone]

It's good though that King's are getting hold of the college to try to sort the Maths out for those in the area who aren't privileged enough to have a choice.

I'm not sure it does do no harm, Bride, it skews the truth as thetasigmamum says.

Mind you, some Oxford dons would like school like ours excised from the state school stats too (on the basis that we 'operate..through social and cultural exclusion and elitism'). Oh well.

[mummytime]

Okay sorry to be a little negative. But how long has the school been running IB? Because from local experience I would be a bit wary of any school which is running it for the first time, especially without a track record. I have known good students not do as well as expected.

Also have you considered a State boarding school (such as Peter simmonds (?) in Winchester)?

BTW my ex-tutor liked State school pupils even if from Grammars as he thought they had to be bright to get good grades, unlike some private schools.

[duchesse]

They've been doing it since 1993 mummy!

I agree with you, as I once taught in a new IB school, and it was not good for the first 2 years, and that's why I wouldn't go with KEVICC kindly suggested upthread by someone as they are in their 1st year.

[duchesse]

Thrid reply, Queen's:
Dear [Mr and Mrs duchesse],

My views are as follows:

1) Do you feel that the science courses in the IB are as rigorous as A levels?

Yes. We have had excellent students through the IB route in Sciences in recent years who have gone on to achieve top degrees

> 2) Have you made any offers to IB applying for medicine or the sciences in the last few years, and if so how high do they tend to be? Do candidates tend to meet their offers or not? Would you say that the proportion of IB candidates meeting their offers is similar or lower to A level candidates?
Yes. We typically have 5 or so students a year with IB offers in Science subjects. We usually offer at 40 or 41 points in total with 776 in Higher Level subjects. We currently have 2 Medics who took the IB (we make offers to 11 Medical students each year). With relatively small numbers, it is difficult to generalise about whether IB students are more or less likely to meet offers than A-level candidates. It is the case that a significant number of our IB offerholders exceed the terms of their offer.


> 3) Does the college?s proposed solution of adding a maths A level to the mix seem odd to you? How would you as an admissions tutor view it on paper?

I can't comment on the college's preferred solution. As an Admissions Tutor, I see students offering a variety of combinations of qualifications. The beauty of our system is that we are able to look at individual circumstances in making decisions. I would have no problem in making an offer that involved, for example, an A in A-level maths plus 77 in HL Chemistry and Biology and an overall grade for the IB.

[duchesse]

And from Newnham:
Dear [Mr and Mrs duchesse]



Unfortunately our Admissions Tutor, Dr XY, is away from Cambridge until 6 September, but I will try to answer your questions as far as possible, and perhaps Dr Y will add further information on her return.



We are receiving increasing numbers of applications from students taking the IB, as it is gaining in popularity in state as well as independent schools. We do not have any misgivings about the standard of the Higher Level as compared to A-levels, and we regularly make conditional offers to both arts and science applicants. Our standard offer based on the IB would be 40-42 points overall (including bonus points), with 776 at the Higher Level ? HL Chemistry would be essential for either Medicine or Natural Sciences (Biological).



Despite the steady increase in numbers, the number of IB applicants remains much lower than A-level applicants, so it is difficult to compare the success rate. However, it has been noticed across the University as a whole that there is a tendency for teachers to be over-optimistic when predicting IB grades.



We have in the past had applicants taking a combination of IB and A-levels, but it is fairly unusual. Dr Y might wish to comment on this ? and on your final question.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

It may, when your DD is closer to applying, be worth noting that the number of applicants different colleges receive differs quite a lot. To be blunt, it's usually easier to get into Newnham than Pembroke. They used to print a graph of the number of applicants against number of places per college at the back of the prospectus.

[Yellowstone]

duchesse, not a single one is championing the 'mixed economy' option. Some are pointing gently to downsides. There's no way that they're going to direct what she should do.

Your DD has two sound alternatives and though her grades are very good, many others will be just the same or better. The level of competition for Medicine at Cambridge is almost insane, as it is Oxford and other places too.

DS1 has better grades, took them all in Y10, has dropped almost no marks across his AS's, has wanted to be a doctor for years, has done work experience, has read reams of unitelligible looking medical books and the rest of the family are nevertheless counselling extreme caution about his chance of Oxbridge (and other) success. This is on the basis of equally talented kids who've been rejected.

If she were mine I'd be driving her back to Magdalen Rd. fairly fast. Honestly.