How important is maths for the most competitive university subjects?

[darkside]

My daughter wants to apply to university to study medicine. She is studying 3 sciences and one essay subject but not maths. She has several As at GSCE, her other subjects are A grades. Her A level targets are A, the school doesn't give A targets until after AS results.

How difficult would it be to get into medical school without maths at a higher level than A grade GSCE? Would dropping the essay subject to study AS maths be sensible?

yellow apologies if i am repeating what you have already said. I havent read the whole thread, and only came on here to tell a poster that she is posting a lot of stuff about her dd.
The criminal convictions thing was new to me, so i posted about it, but i guess it isnt news to others.

Main thing I meant med is that if you've got 12 A*'s you should walk it, but you may not!

I'm getting quite a lot of stick from another poster for no obvious reason, so I wanted to be clear!

"I think quite a few med applicants get 'full houses'. They aren't that rare at top schools."

Yellowstone, a pupil sitting 8 GCSE subjects and gets 8 A-stars scores a ?full house? in this context. Likewise, a pupil sitting 10 subjects and scores 10 A-stars achieves a ?full house?. But a pupil who sits 12 subjects and scores 11 A-stars and 1 ?A? does not score a ?full house? in this argument. I leave you to decide who is the best student of the three. Of course, I?m assuming all these exams are taken within the 2-year period finishing at the end of Year 11.

So you reckon quite a few med applicants get 'full houses' and a large number of your chlldren?s friends including your eldest four, have ?full houses?. Yes, maybe they do. But in how many subjects, that?s what I'm interested to know.

Don?t know about your eldest four (maybe you can tell us), but I would suggest a very large majority of med applicants do not get a ?full house? for 11 or 12 subjects which is the original number of (GCSE) subjects I first talked about. And I am referring to med applicants here who are supposed to be the ?top 2%? according to you, and that large number of your children's friends who have them must be the super elite of the country flying even higher than the nation?s prospective medics. Well done to them!

"I think I was the one who said that being in the top 2% on raw grades won't get you a place without the other qualities schools are looking for. pete was the one who seemed surprised."

I'm not sure how you're hoping to go to med school with such a short memory at best and being so negligent at worst to have missed my Golden Rule No: 9.

9) But PLEASE remember, it does not necessarily mean anyone with less than 8 GCSE A*s will not enter medical school. All the schools will tell you they look at an applicant?s complete application, i.e. personal statement, school reference, GCSE?s, AS-levels, predicted A-levels, extra curricular activities, work experience, etc.

pete, you asked!: DD1 got 10 A's in one stitting at the end of Y11, DD2 got 11A's in one sitting at the end of Y10, DD3 got 11 A's in one sitting at the end of Y10, DS1 got 12 A's in on sitting at the end of Y10. No modules were taken, all linear. They are in good company at their school. None are at the top of their cohort in terms of achievement except arguably DS1 who at least shares that place with others. His 100% score in nine out of ten AS papers certainly managed to p*ss off his sisters, who regard him as a bit of a joke (he does it with no apparent effort; I think there is something wrong). DS1 is by no means complacent about getting a place, he knows there's far more to it than grades.

I think I read in the paper after last year's GCSE results that 23 pupils at South Hampstead High got 11A*s, though that's from memory.

You said a couple of days ago on another thread that your DS was at possibly the greatest school in the world and was a scholar there, so I'm surprised that you're surprised at results like these. I bet all the good London day schools and top grammars produce similar results year on year and I'd have thought your own DS's school would be bound to do so if it's world beating as you say.

Our HT said that 10/ 11 A*'s puts a student in the top 2%. I didn't say that the top 2% apply to medical school, I'm sure applicants are much more scattered across the spectrum than that. I would expect that most of those top 2% do apply to the top universities though, which is why I said they wouldn't regard those results as unusual, for them.

In the past four UCAS cycles a significant number of the DCs' friends have gone to medical schools with grades similar to this but also with lower grades. All pretty set on that career though, that I would say and clearly showed their aptitude at interview which your 12 A* student friend seems not to have done.

pete I'm not hoping to go to medical school. You're pretty rude!

JUst to add something else to the mix ladies. Having a full house or not isnt the only important thing. If you look at a year group in any medschool, you will find not only high acheivers academically, but lots of grade 8 piano players, black belts in karate, people representing england in sports etc. Most people have an extra thing, a superpower :) a person who doesnt is rare.
10 A*s at one sitting and HCA experience just isnt enough.

Agree completely med, these high achievers tend to achieve highly in all sorts of fields. Though isn't the thinking that at the top universities that these extra talents are incidental rather than a reason for an offer? But then that's back to the 'how far are extra curriculars relevant to a uni offer' debate.

Anyhow, always salutary for students aiming for competitive subjects to be aware of the competition and never to be complacent, whatever their talents and grades.

Too many that's.

But I hope the medical schools bear in mind that not all potential great medics come from a background which can afford music lessons to Grade 8 etc. or sometimes even the time to foster these talents.

Yellow, the people who are going to shine, will shine whatever school or financial background they come from.
a colleague went to a self described rough school, but used his older sisters notes to study, she had gotten into a selective grammar (or scholorship at private, not sure) and he got a place at medschool
another one went to a bogstandard comp(her description) yet plays polo competitively
AND five percent of these very same high acheivers are going to be kicked out or asked to repeat the year. so yes, getting your ten A*s is only the beginning. and having parents pay out for music lessons isnt necessary.

sorry, one last point. they may be incidental, but if you have ten people with equally high grades in everything else, and one is a grade 8 piano, then that is the one that will be chosen. not for the piano as such, but because he acheived it whilst maintaining the grades. iyswim

med this stuff about extra curriculars has been discussed fairly exhaustively on another recent thread and several tutors have given their views. The general thrust of which (translated) was that playing polo brilliantly won't of itself mean that you've the potential to become a brilliant doctor.

I'd love to know how an ordinary kid gets free music lessons, transport to lessons and an instrument. And a polo pony too. Some kids also need to work at weekends to generate money which may limit their free time for polo and flute.

I'm not completely sure of your point. Grades are a good starting point in a competitive field and I don't think anyone here has said it's grades and only grades which count. Clearly it isn't.

Yellow, i didnt read the other thread, so dont know about the exhaustive discussion on it.

I do think that achieving the required grades from a bog standard comp is something special nowadays. Mine has decided there is no way she will get the grades to apply so has ditched the idea. The teaching and track record in her 6th form is abysmal. Who knows what the future holds and I'm doing my damnest to convince her that despite racking up at least 9grand in debt per year it is worth her doing some kind of degree, hopefully a science based one which might keep options open to do medicine in the future.

Hopefully the fee issue will be sorted out one day and put us back to an inclusive higher education system.

The vibes I'm getting from the current year 12's is that it's not worth going to uni because of the fees so many are dropping out of A levels and going into college to learn a trade. I'm talking about ordinary students who's parents couldn't afford an expensive education. Some of the ones dropping out are bright too, it's a scandal. Will be interesting to see what the knock on effect will be for the uni's.

adamschic is she/ they extra gloomy because it's exam time again? It must be worth applying in the next cycle, surely? Her school background should count for a lot: of course an A from that sort of school counts for more, quite a bit more.

UCAS is providing 'close contextual data' (I think it's called) for 2012 applicants, so if my understanding of it is right, her achievement will be set in the context of the school's abysmal track record. And haven't you said that she should get fairly significant financial help? She won't get a place if she doesn't apply.

On my eldest's course there's a wide variation in GCSE grades which reflects the wide variation in schools. Not much difference in ability, just in grades and schools.

Yes, it is because it's exam time. GCSE grades were good, not full house, admittedly, but as good as it gets in the school. It's by far a sink comp but AS grades have been low all round, some are repeating this year and having private tuition to get good grades. Most Jan modules have been retaken as well as this round, so very gloomy.

Very impressed with your DC's achievements btw.

Yellow; "none are at the top of their cohort.." with 10/11 A* at the end of year TEN!!! Are you serious? What sort of super-school is that?

Jonnyfan I assure you that really, none are the top of their cohort. I'm serious. It's a grammar. DS1 may be, tied, but he's got a recessive gene or something I think.

adamschic the system for stateschoolers is extremely unfair. Such a lottery, geographically. If your DD had a go at our school it sounds like she'd fly. I hope she applies and gets snapped up and life levels out.

Yellow, we are being realistic, but despairing that social mobility is being suppressed and how boring life would be if everything stayed the same.

I'm amazed that 11 A is the norm in year 10! Mine went to a very selective private school and were only allowed 10 subjects, and DD was the only one to get all 10 A, and that was in year 11. I'm talking top school in a large city, outperforming local state and other private schools.

Quote Jonnyfan - Yellow; "none are at the top of their cohort.." with 10/11 A* at the end of year TEN!!! Are you serious? What sort of super-school is that?

If you believe that, you?ll believe anything. This is what I said in an earlier post about average medical school hopefuls and GCSE A*s in general:

. . . and that large number of your children's friends who have them must be the super elite of the country flying even higher than the nation?s prospective medics.

Jonnyfan: I'm amazed that 11 A is the norm in year 10! Mine went to a very selective private school and were only allowed 10 subjects, and DD was the only one to get all 10 A, and that was in year 11. I'm talking top school in a large city, outperforming local state and other private schools.

That seems more like the real world to me.

Let?s not all get too emotional and start plucking figures from thin air. As a natural sceptic, I?m more interested in seeing facts and figures. One talks of top grammar schools that produce pupils gaining 11 or more As in Y10 as their second nature. Maybe I live in another world but to me, these facts and figures tell me which are the nation?s top grammar schools - 4 of the top 7 are in my neck of the woods from which both my DC have had offers to at least two of them (appropriate gender) but only my DD took up one school. I know a lot of kids [and their parents] who go to these schools and most of them DO NOT have a ?full house? 11 or 12 As at the end of Y11. Nine or ten ?A-stars? plus one/two/three ?A?s are ?fairly common?.

And now let?s have a closer analysis of the nation?s ?very top school? according to the league table to see if all their girls gain 11 A*s. Well, no actual earth-shattering figures given so the prognosis doesn?t sound very promising.

"You said a couple of days ago on another thread that your DS was at possibly the greatest school in the world and was a scholar there, so I'm surprised that you're surprised at results like these. I bet all the good London day schools and top grammars produce similar results year on year and I'd have thought your own DS's school would be bound to do so if it's world beating as you say."

Yellowstone the ?greatest school in the world? is a pretty subjective matter. My DD thinks her GS was the greatest in the world and who am I to disagree with her? When my DS says his is the greatest in the world, I will have to agree in order to maintain family peace. But seriously, there are quite a few folks out there, especially from overseas, who think DS is right. Maybe these ignorant foreigners know of no other British schools except this one?

In any case, it depends on what one?s definition of ?greatest? is. To me, it doesn?t necessarily mean achieving the best academic results or how many GCSE/AS/A2 ?full houses? or Oxbridge successes the school has. If that?s what I was looking for, then I would have sent DS to one of the 2 top grammar schools in the nation that had offered him a place whilst still being underage. No, I was looking for a school that educates the whole person - in mind, body and soul which this school does best including guiding him to ?full houses? 12 As IGCSE/GCSE?s; 5 ?A?s at AS-level; and since January, 1 A for Maths (100%) at A2 with the rest to follow next month. Needless to say, he's got all the other 'usual suspects' too like Grade 7 piano, guitar (no grading), football, rugby (which public school doesn't play this game?) rowing, the CCF . . . this is what I mean educating the whole person.

Jonny I didn't say the 'norm'. They're at the upper end just not at the top (with the DS1 caveat). All the pupils take all their exams in Y10 (after a normal 2 yr course but starting in Y9).

pete I know exactly what exam results my DC's have got and I've got their certificates to prove it! Very, very odd indeed accusing me of being a liar ( If you believe that, you?ll believe anything ).

Let?s not all get too emotional and start plucking figures from thin air. OK, I'll indulge your natural scepticism: I've dug out DD3's Speech Day booklet for 2008, which lists 12 pupils achieving 11 As and 8 pupils achieving 10 As. These pupils were all in Y10, and in that year group no-one took 12. The cohort was 117 pupils.

St Paul's Girls' School might have a claim to be 'top school'; it scored 84% As at GCSE in 2010 (not A/A - that was 99%). You like facts and figures, you work out how many got a 'full house'. And I still recall the newspaper item which said South Hampstead High got 23 students with 11 A*s. None of your statistics actually show very much in terms of 'full houses'.

This thing about 'greatest school' is a nonsense. I'm happy with my DC's school, that's enough for me. It does the 'whole person' thing too. I believe part of being a 'whole person' is to be aware that however clever you are there are lots and lots of other clever people out there too.

Your posts are frankly appalling :o