How important is maths for the most competitive university subjects?

[darkside]

My daughter wants to apply to university to study medicine. She is studying 3 sciences and one essay subject but not maths. She has several As at GSCE, her other subjects are A grades. Her A level targets are A, the school doesn't give A targets until after AS results.

How difficult would it be to get into medical school without maths at a higher level than A grade GSCE? Would dropping the essay subject to study AS maths be sensible?

darleneoconnor: Everyone I knew at medical school had A level maths and the 3 sciences.

I think she will be at a disadvantage without it tbh.

Same here, entirely agree with you about Maths at medical school, darlene. However, it?s got to be said not all 3 sciences are required. Chemistry (almost always compulsory in every medical school) plus one other science in addition to Maths will meet even Oxbridge?s minimum requirements for medicine. So, in theory you don?t even need to have Biology and less so, Physics and for anyone to come to Mumsnet to say Cambridge to insist on Physics is simply scare mongering:

Cambridge University - Medicine (A100) and Graduate Medicine (A101) entrance requirements and expectations

But of course, any serious medical student who hopes to have a fighting chance to gain a place at medical school will endeavour to have at least 2, if not all 3 sciences PLUS Maths to demonstrate flair and depth of knowledge. There are even a noticeable few who confidently offer five A2?s. Your child is not competing with the university, darkside, it?s these guys she'll be competing with.

There?s no necessity for me to engage in any scientific research in coming to a guesstimate figure of 80% of all medical student hopefuls offering Maths at A2. Just knowing your subject and what you?re talking about will suffice. Like I said, it was only my guess and if anyone still needs convincing then have a look near the bottom here - A-levels and equivalent qualifications - Statistics from the 2010 admissions round (for 2011 entry) at what Oxford?s got to say in their latest cycle of admissions to medical school.

Well, I'm sure the point of a levels is to gain an education, learn different things that may help in the future, not just do what is needed to get into uni. Myself and some friends did 5 a-levels as we couldn't decide what to drop and just purely enjoyed studying different subjects, and so I personally don't get that it's all about what's needed to get into uni. The workload wasn't overpowering to stage of no extra- curricular activities and I totally agree that it's possible for a bright student to cope. University is definitely way more stressful and medicine has even more juggling with placements and studying and exams all going on! I have spoken to many admission staff over my time at uni and they definitely take into account things that may differentiate you from other students, be it extra activities, subjects, person you are. At the end of the day, they've got to choose somehow especially now when so many students come with very similar grades. It's not just about figures, the selection process does become subjective when at times there's very little to choose between each candidate.

pete science has its uses. I'm not sure that extrapolating from the Oxford statistics (which give 79% of applicants as offering maths) and making it a national rule would count as science. Those applying to Oxford for medicine are not likely to be typical medical applicants, they're bound to be at the upper end. One Oxford admissions tutor for medicine advised DS1 that Chemistry, Biology and Physice was his ideal scenario, that he wanted to interview and teach students who were genuinely excited by science. He said nothing of maths. That doesn't mean that he felt that maths is without a place.

A little way up the thread you said that three sciences was the 'minimum requirement' for med schools. How do you reconcile that with saying that anyone who asserts that Cambridge likes Physics is scaremongering?! (I think I said that I understood that to be the case anyhow and DS1 took Physics because he liked it anyhow and to keep his options open).

Congratulations to your DS anyhow for getting into his first choice of med school. Where did he choose? I'm trying to steer mine clear of Imperial because I read somewhere recently that rents are crazy, thousands a term. Nearly as scary as grades....

pete here we go: 'Three sciences wil suffice as it meets the minimum requirements of most, if not all medical schools in the UK. But inevitably, all medical student hopefuls have the minimum requirements, so we're not just talking about the minimum requirements anymore'.

pete that is way more scaremongery than saying that I think that Cambridge may be the only med school that stipulates Physics. (Clearly it varies between colleges but I'm not sure DS1 is set on applying to Cambridge anyway so neither of us have got into the small print yet. Since he's taking Physics anyway, it's not actually a deal!).

will not wil

A little way up the thread you said that three sciences was the 'minimum requirement' for med schools.

That's not what I said Yellowstone. The following is precisely what I said:

Three sciences will suffice as it meets the minimum requirements of most, if not all medical schools in the UK.

I said that in direct response to what the OP told us about her DD when I first read her new thread:

"My daughter wants to apply to university to study medicine. She is studying 3 sciences and one essay subject but not maths."

So, what it simply means is that her daughter's 3 sciences is sufficient in meeting most UK medical schools' minimum requirements which in many cases is usually 2 sciences plus one other.

I then went on to give her as much advice as possible; to avoid possible pitfalls and emphasizing particularly the very tough competition from fellow applicants ahead, many of them would have 3 sciences plus Maths, not to mention wiser re-applicants and graduates who will all be competing with school-leavers like our children. I had refrained, for example, from telling OP that guys I know with 11 and even 12 very academically solid I/GCSE's As (100%) with predicted A Maths at A2 and Further Maths to boot, getting straight rejections from not any particularly great (imho) medical schools. Now perhaps you can say this is scare mongering, but is it really when I'm telling a fact?

Thank you for the congratulatory message. If you don't mind, I rather not tell on an open forum like this which medical school DS is going to this autumn because my identity will be quickly and easily revealed. Let's just say he's going to a prestigious world-class medical school here in the UK.

pete in the light of what you've said, I hardly think that my saying that I understood Cambridge to require Physics is scaremongering!

Interesting that you are now referring to cases of students with 12 As at GCSE and A predictions in Maths and Further Maths. People often use these single extreme cases as evidence of a wider reality which is very misleading. I could give much more reassuring factual evidence of students who have got in to read medicine at 'world class' schools with less in terms of grades but presumably more in terms of overall qualities, which is what the interviewers are looking for. I can certainly say that no student from our school who has 12 A's has been rejected in recent cycles from Oxford or Cambridge. Plenty with 11 As have been successful and a number of those with fewer A*'s than that also have very impressive offers.

I don't personally buy the argument that Maths demonstrates 'flair and depth of knowledge' to any greater extent than doing, say, History or French. I think a strong argument could be made that doing an entirely different non-scientific subject shows more 'flair and depth'. Especially since doing Physics without Maths is a tough call, as everyone knows.

I'm sorry that you seem offended by my enquiring about where your DS was headed for uni. There are several threads on the Further Ed page where MNetters discuss very openly which universities their DC's have firmed through UCAS so it didn't occur to me it would be an issue, especially since you've all but named his school on another thread. Anyhow, what would be really useful for parents of prospective applicants would be specific insight into specific departments on the basis of previous applicants experience. That would really help!

You're right, yellowstone, she is doing 4 A levels, 3 science and one essay subject. It is not my idea that she should do an extra subject, she tells me that she needs it for some of the courses she is considering. I thought she might drop the essay subject if she needed to do maths. I would prefer she concentrated on the three sciences, the school require them to do 4 subjects.

Mine is doing Maths to AS level, she only got a B at GCSE so a good AS grade might redeem her. Also Chemistry, Biology and History to A2 next year fingers crossed she will make the grade but it's not looking great as A2 January results were terrible and are being resat this week.

She comes from a state school with unremarkable A level results, what's the minium she can apply with and what to do if she doesn't get the grades? Sorry to hijack.

The majority of medical schools ask for predicted grades of AAA at A2 adamschic but some are still asking for AAB so I would advise looking at the website of each of them to find out. You can find a list of every school by going on UCAS course search. At AS that would mean As too, in the subjects she's continuing to A2. If she doesn't get the grades she could do a similar degree, eg biomedical sciences or medical biochemistry, and try for graduate medicine later... however apparently the graduate courses are even more competitve than undergraduate. Or take a gap year, resit some exams and reapply next year. There are quite a few books on this sort of thing out there, if there is a careers library at her school they should have some, or your local library.

Thanks, she is more clued up than me. Just seems with the new fees that it's best to get in straight away rather than doing more years at Uni, but worth thinking about doing chemistry rather than giving up the dream.

People often use these single extreme cases as evidence of a wider reality which is very misleading.

The ?wider reality? you?re talking about Yellowstone, includes cases such as those I reported. It may be rare but that?s because it is rare for anyone to achieve a 100% (full house) 11 or 12 GCSE A*s.

There are of course, rare success stories from the opposite end too with people getting offers with 5 or 6 GCSE As. I did emphasize earlier that it?s not all doom and gloom for people with less than 8 As. I felt it was important for prospective medicine applicants to know as fully as possible the reality out there before taking the plunge. It is believed at least 60% of all medicine applicants will get ALL FOUR rejections in any given cycle. UCAS recognise this reality and that?s why one can only apply to 4 medical schools leaving the 5th choice as a fall back to another course other than medicine. Many die-hard medics leave the 5th choice blank though.

?I could give much more reassuring factual evidence of students who have got in to read medicine at 'world class' schools with less in terms of grades but presumably more in terms of overall qualities, which is what the interviewers are looking for.?

Do not assume all interviewers at all medical schools are looking for the same attributes in a candidate. This thinking is very naive. Fact: Boy I know last year got rejected by Birmingham but snapped up by Cambridge. I can give many other odd ball examples but this is not doing the OP any good.

?I'm sorry that you seem offended by my enquiring about where your DS was headed for uni.?

No, it?s not an issue at all and I?m not offended; if anything, I?m extremely proud of DS who has achieved so much over the years as any parent would be. It?s just that I don?t feel like divulging any more unnecessary personal information on an open forum on the worldwide web. Any other tips I have for prospective medicine applicants, I have already given.

. . she is doing 4 A levels, 3 science and one essay subject.

Tell us darkside if you feel comfortable, what subject is this "essay subject" your DD is taking in addition to the 3 sciences.

pete I said rare cases are often used misleadingly to demonstrate a wider reality, so it's good to clarify that they are rare.

I think quite a few med applicants get 'full houses'. They aren't that rare at top schools. Nationally I believe that it's the top 2% so the top universities will come across 'full houses' all the time, given the audience which targets them. A large number of my children's friends have them (and my own eldest four too as it happens). If some of the many applicants with these grades don't impress the interviewer and fall short in terms of other qualities, obviously they won't get a place. Of course interviewers are looking for different things because the med schools are different themselves and have differing aims. What I think I said was that interviewers are looking for the winning combination of overall qualities in a candidate, whatever those may be for a particular school.

darkside if you don't mind me hijacking slightly, could anyone who has been through the process distinguish the different characteristics of the London departments: that would be really helpful. And what marks out the various regional medical schools too?

I wouldn't be comfortable giving the subject or my reasons for not doing so. The hijacks are all providing useful information, please continue :)

If you cherish your anonimity here and wouldn't want a journo/neighbour/DC's frind's Mum or teacher reading all your posts in the full knowledge of who you are...be very careful not to out yourself.

You'd be surprised how people put two and two together.

If they're stalkers/ interested!

My DH is about 10 years ahead of your DCs, he was part of the interview panel for a medical school this year (not saying which one). He says the most important things are:

• Does the applicant really want to do medicine?

-Once they know the applicant is clever (but not necessarily exceptionally so) the main thing is 'would I be comfortable with this person caring for my sick child/mother/spouse' etc It's a qualitative trait not a quantitative one.

-SO get as much work exp as possible, preferably the 'messy' and non glamorous kind, old peoples homes for those with dementia are great. As are homeless shelters.

-Make sure your DCs do their homework, some medical schools like 3 sciences/maths other prefer a subject which shows breadth. We have Dr/student medic friends who have offered between them music, geography, politics and English as a 3rd subject. Only apply to medical schools which like your combo!

-DH did Biology, Chemistry and Sociology for A levels 10 years ago. He still got into one of the best medical schools in the country.

Please please don't be the mother who rings demanding to know why her DC didn't get an offer/interview. Apparently surprisingly a lot of mothers do this...

Tortu, your post made me well up, (blames pregnancy hormones) I am so glad your students got offers.

I got into medicine with the IB many moons ago, and got 3 offers (doing Physical Science, Biology and Maths HLs, but the maths was a low mark). My friend did Physics Chemistry Maths and Biology A levels, but interviewed poorly and only got one offer. Personally I would say the 3 sciences and the essay subject make her an ideal candidate for medicine at most Universities, although maybe Oxford (where I missed a place by one) or Cambridge may feel differently. Doctors should be articulate (although I'm not sure my psoting is this morning) and the essay subject would demonstrate that.

The volunteer work that I have found the most helpful in my medical career was working for a children's charity providing respite care for disabled children. The insight you get into the lives of the families was invaluable. Also I would recommend looking at volunteer work with the elderly in some capacity. It really doesn't have to be GP or hospital based experience as far as the application form is concerned. Work experience in clinical environments is more about making sure the OP's dd has enough of an understanding of medicine to be sure she wants to do it!

Medusa, do you know that you are putting up a great deal of information up about your dd? You may not mind it, but she might not like her colleagues knowing this much about her.

Obviously you're very proud of her, but in future, just say medschool, dont identify her school and placement.

Just want to add to what pete said earlier.

even a caution from the police is a bad bad thing. If you are a prospective medstudent you need to be so mega squeaky clean, its unbelievable. Being top 2% of the population academically just isnt enough.

Tortu there is no job security out there for medics. The recent scandal whereby last years graduates didnt get F1 jobs goes to show that. Five years of studying and working and building up massive debts. Getting the grades, showing you are capable, graduating, etc. But without an F1 job, you cant get registration as a doctor.

Thats actually pretty bad for society generally. It costs about a quarter of a million pounds to train a medstudent through five years of medical school. If at the end of it you dont give them a job so they can complete their registration, then thats an awful lot of money wasted. 180 graduates with no jobs might not sound like much in another subject but in medicine that is 45 million pounds wasted. All because someone didnt plan things properly.

Its also pretty bad for the students concerned.

I'm trying to think back to my A levels... can you really do Chemistry and Physics properly without Maths alongside nowadays?

medstudent I think I was the one who said that being in the top 2% on raw grades won't get you a place without the other qualities schools are looking for. pete was the one who seemed surprised.

Sorry, but the point about criminal convictions is pretty crass. Applies to a lot of professions. Hardly news.

Grimma clearly clever students can do Chemistry and Physics 'properly' without Maths (at least DD1 did AS Physics w/o Maths (A), DD2 did AS Chemistry without Maths (A) and DS1 is doing Physics and Chemistry without Maths and has scored 100% in every single AS paper). I haven't a clue how they do it but clearly if they can do it lots of others can too. I'm not sciency myself, it's all a blur.