Should I withold fees for Independent School ?

[TillyP]

My DTS's attend an Independent Secondary school and are in Yr11 about to take their GCSE's.
Whenever we attend parent's evening we are told they are doing fine etc etc but their mock exam results were quite poor so now they are predicted low grades.
The whole point of paying for an Independent School is to get a good education so can anyone in a similar situation tell me whether I would be within my rights to withold fees for their last couple of terms?
In any other walk of life, if one receives poor service you are not expected to pay, but with schooling you seem to have to pay up whether or not the school has done a good job!

Perhaps privarte schooling should come with a warning -'we have supply good teaching but we don't work magic!'

Perhaps your DC's were performing well in lessons, but like lots of others, buggered up in the exams which again is not the schools fault.

Hi there, going off topic a little bit but do independent schools follow same grading system as state schools in terms of national curriculum attainment levels, e.g. at the end of ks2 children are expected to have reached level 4/5 depending on ability. I don't know about GCSE levels but is there a comparable system or do independents have their own system.

How were the gradings prior to mock exams ? If all fine, then I would probably find out what went wrong and what support would be available to get back on track. No point focussing on withholding fees, I think a poor recommendation sounds like it would be more effective. Good luck.

Might have guessed that I have no experience of independent sector yet.

Mrsmbuble: by and large, no, as they do not have to follow the NC at all (beyond EYFS). But there will be assessment going on all the time. This is something to ask individual schools.

I knew this would be a contentious issue and would throw up quite a few "it's your child's fault" and "you can't buy exam results" type comments.

But because of my own experience at school i.e being written off by the teachers and told I was incapable of doing A'levels and then, after leaving that school, going on the get A'levels and an honours degree, I truly believe that with the right teaching and encouragement, any child can achieve their best.
I have always encouraged them to study and try their best.

So, my point was do other parents with kids at Independent schools ever feel that the school is telling them what they want to hear in order to keep the kids there and keep the fees rolling in.
I genuinely think that if you are not happy with any service you should have the right to withold some of the payment and why should schools be any different?

We have never signed any sort of contract with the school and we have given notice for them to leave after yr11 but the school is trying hard to persuade us to let the kids stay so there is not much danger of them getting thrown out!

The guiltyone thats my point, the school has never told us of any concerns.
Senua and Want2beSupermum thankyou for your helpful comments.

I have never, ever heard of a private school that does not have a contract with the parents.

If you have no contract, why did you give notice? If there is no contract, then you don't even have a start point for what was to be provided.

Obviously everybody is right that TillyP doesn't have a legal case for witholding fees (although if, as she has said, there is no contract, I could imagine the school having some difficulty getting them out of her).

But I think a lot of people have misunderstood. As I read it her complaint is not that her kids are predicted low grades per se, but rather that she didn't get fair notification of this ahead of time so she could be aware she had to do something about it.

That seems like a reasonable gripe to me. It would be reasonable even in a state school - moreso when you're paying for the peace of mind of knowing they're on track. The least the school could do is report honestly and accurately.

However, having had my DS at a distinctly average private primary for the last two years, which has suffered a terrible dip in morale due to an apathetic head, I can see there is a real problem here that people need to be careful of. It's easy to presume that a private school will put more effort into getting excellent exam results, but that's not always true. I think often they just rely on the fact that their intake is the sort of families who will support more at home anyway. And without being subject to government control, Ofsted, the NC etc, they can get away with a lot more.

In bad cases, they can be extremely lazy. I've seen a lot less inspired teaching and genuine desire to go the extra mile in my son's school than I have in most of the state schools I've seen.

You are free to withdraw your DC at anytime-I never understand why people pay for something they don't like.

exotic - lets remove the fact that the OP is paying for the school fees. If this were a state school the OP would be well within her rights to be pissed off if teachers have not been truthful about the academic progress of her child. I would be furious if this happened to me as there is a limited amount of work that can be done to fix things at this late stage and the impact on the future opportunities for her child is enormous.

doh - are enormous.... long day out here...

Thankyou confidence, you understood my gripe exactly and I think from talking to other parents that there is a problem with complacency amongst some private schools.

I understand that I am free to withdraw my children at any time but it is not so easy when your kids are settled and happy at school and do not want to leave.

Why do people always assume private schools offer the best education without question? They are often filled with failed unqualified teachers who would never be employed elsewhere. Private schools are a business - making money is their first priority, not the interests of the child.

@ Want2bSupermum,

Actually you were right the first time - it's "is enormous". "THE impact" is singular, so it IS enormous.

@scurryfunge,

"Why do people always assume private schools offer the best education without question? They are often filled with failed unqualified teachers who would never be employed elsewhere. Private schools are a business - making money is their first priority, not the interests of the child."

Like I said we have certainly learnt this lesson. Because private schools are so much less regulated, I think if anything you have to be more careful about examining each case closely and not presuming anything.

However, on a simple point of accuracy: Most private schools are not businesses. About 85% of them are registered charities, which means any money made above breaking even must be reinvested in the aims of the charity. They are administered by charitable trustees, and don't have shareholders or pay dividends.

Actually, the one my DS goes to is one of the other 15% - an actual profit making business. Interestingly though, the fees are low by private school standards. I don't know if this is true of others like it, but it makes me suspect the reason for very high fees in the best ones (which generally are charities) is not because people are making a fortune out of them, but rather because that's what it costs to deliver a really superb education with great facilities and small class sizes.

ds is at an independent school doing a levels. i agreed with the school marking him down at mocks as he needed kick up the behind motivating to study harder. this worked and he got good results

so it could be the case that they are marking down at mocks but what seems apparent is their complete lack of communicating with you.

also, you must have a contract with them even if you cant remember signing one. you do need to pay the fees

I have generalised in terms of the business aspect but believe we have to be extremely careful about the type of school we choose if it is in the private sector. It is not given that payment for education = excellence.

You should pay the fees. Then work out a study plan for your children asap otherwise they will be retaking. I cannot believe that you were not checking what standard of work was being produced by your children.

The mock exams are based on work that has already been covered in school, it could be children were nervous sitting the papers or that they were struggling.

I know a woman who took six off work because her dd was so unorganised in her approach to studying.

I totally agree with scurryfunge that the quality of teaching in the private sector can be of a poor standard. People pay all this money to ensure their children do not mix with poor people, there is no other justification for private education. All educational research shows that children from well motivated families do well at school regardless of which school they attend.

confidence - I know and I am embarrassed. I suffered from being quite dyslexic and struggle to read what I have written with this type of format.

My aunt had the most novel approach to selecting schools for her children. She would check the bathrooms used by the pupils and excluded most of her initial selection on this criteria alone. Her reason for using this method was that it demonstrated to her the standards expected from pupils and the general discipline of the pupils. In her opinion, 'You can't learn without having some discipline.'

So you just paid the money and left them to it? I bet the school can't quite believe your lack of involvement and lack of committment to your DC's education.

Don't have personal experience but surely teachers at independent schools are used to fee-paying parents being very involved in their DC's education, having strong teacher-parent relationships and parents putting in the effort to ensure that a sufficient study ethic is nutured, maintained and put into practice at home.

If it's a case of your DTS's not being very bright then that's another matter. If this is an issue with all their class mates and there is a real failing with the school I apologise.

Otherwise, instead of withholding fees teach your DTS's about the consequences of their actions, and the importance in life of taking responsibility for one's self.

Admit to the boys that you let things slide a bit on your part and make them own up to the fact that they have too.

Make them see that only they can turn this around and it will be a real triumph if they do. I'm sure it is do-able (I missed shed loads of school in Y10 due to illness, was predicted a D worked my socks off and got an A).

I hope they do well. Good luck.
You aren't doing them any favours at all by letting them think that this is the school's fault. And sorry to commit the crime of being judgey, but I suspect they've go the ill-conceived idea that if- you're-paying-for-it-you-don't-really-have-to-work- at-it-attitude from you.

State system is so paranoid about the result, there is nothing the teachers won't do to make sure the children are on target (ie. top sets only getting A or A*, second set getting no lower than a A or B and so on)..it bugs me when people insist they wouldn't do as well in the state sector.

The state sector has children from all walks of life so overall they don't look as though they do as well as indep.

Generally speaking the private school kids would be in the top set if they came to the state, so they would do great!

Btw - My A level class has 8 in it, like the local private school.

TillyP: I think earlier posters majored on the question of fees because of the question in the title, and because it was the only direct question in OP.

Private educatedly children - as a whole population - do tend to do very well academically. But this is a generalisation over them all, not an individual guarantee.

I think what you've been saying is a reminder that parents need make sure they understand what teachers are saying; this is true in both fee-paying and state schools.

But surely they had exams and reports during their school career? How were their marks and grades throughout their time at the school?

Harder to find out at secondary school age, I know, but as Misfitless points out, is this just a matter affecting your DTS?

Private education doesn't guarantee the best results for every child - not every child is capable of them. You are right that the school should be enabling your child to do their best (every school should) - but maybe this is his best?

I have chosen a private school for DS for the small class sizes, loads of sport and PE, flexible after school arrangements and strong ethos of discipline. It also happens to get the best GCSE results in the area despite being non selective, but I don't assume for a minute that he will necessarily get better results there than he would have done elsewhere.

You do have a contract btw - contracts are by conduct as well as express written terms. If you completed a registration form (which you must have done) it would have said something like "We accept the policies and terms and conditions of the school" and there will be loads of them - uniform, bullying, after school arrangements, discpline, fees etc etc.

It does sound a bit like you sent him along and sat back tbh.

I also think it sounds as if you sent him and sat back thinking all was well because you had paid. Private education is no different than state in that you have to keep on top of what they are actually doing and ask questions. You really shouldn't be in such a position so late on and it is a bit late to withhold fees at this stage.

If I had been told my dcs were doing well and then told they would get low grades in public exams I'd be livid, irrespective of whether it was a state or private school. I would expect the school to come up with an action plan on how to remedy this. It makes no sense if their previous exam results have been good and their school report grades good too. If they have been stringing you along then I would be removing my dcs and finding a more suitable school.

We have the opposite at ds's prep. Everyone who knows ds comments on how bright he is. His teacher says he is average (non selective school so not full of super bright dcs either!).