subjects of death for chosen careers

[Appletrees]

Inspired by the English bacc thread I would like to know subjects would be advised AGAINST for particular careers.

Given that schools are encouraging children to take subjects that will boost league tables A-C results rather than into the unis/training colleges/courses the students actually need.

So I am starting with journalism after a great post from Basildon Bond on the bacc thread.

For journalism, don't take media studies.

Any more?

Design technology is no good for engineering (although it certainly helped me decide which branch I wanted to study).

The thing with IT is that you need a good grounding in maths so maths and future maths should really be two choices. You can demonstrate ability by writing programmes etc outside your studies.

My DH still regrets turning down Oxford to read maths and going to another good university to read computer science. It's such a fast-moving sector that most of what he learnt was already obsolete, and companies will take you on with other technical degrees. He has done very well though!

And I'd definitely second engineers needing to be good at English and communicating. It's a massive part of most jobs.

ICT is compulsory at GCSE

The scary thing is that Farside, a poster further up the thread, is a careers teacher and is advising her pupils that it's ok to do duff subjects.

What chance do kids stand when the flippin' careers person is shafting them?

Freudianslippery, what other A levels did you do with the psychology? I think that's the thing, if you have Psych, Maths, and another traditional subject or two you'd be fine. It's partly a matter of having enough of the traditional subjects. As Appletrees says, Maths is always good. Trad sciences always look good. Languages look both traditional + useful in the Real World.

it's the boring safe bet to stick with the traditional subjects if you're not totally sure what you want to do but are interested in the more academic university courses.

I did maths, psychology and law A level, and human biology and further maths AS.

So yes I agree it's context - a student with psychology, sociology and meeja studies would probably fare less well?

FarSide, I'm really sorry, but didn't you take a journalist saying that a media studies degree 'wouldn't be held against a candidate' as a massive red flag? (appropriately for the Grauniad perhaps )

I don't want ANY qualification that ds slogs at to be 'not held against him', I want it to be an asset. Otherwise there's no point in him doing it.

I am sure that an MS degree offers what all degrees offer to some extent - the chance to read, explore, think and develop certain skills such as defending your ideas in writing. It would also offer the opportunity to get into the relevant student newspaper/radio environment, hassle companies for internships and work experience etc. But any degree would offer that. Other degrees would give you something else to write or broadcast about, from a position of some knowledge. And if ds is going to be graduating with a minimum debt of £27,000, I will be suggesting that he goes for the maximum benefit he can.

kayah - ICT GCSE certainly isn't compulsory at all schools - schools have different rules about 'core' subjects, particularly if they are officially 'specialist colleges' in something or other. It's not compulsory at DS's school, or my nephew's.

This is why I started the thread, real info from real working women about what gets you the jobs and the good courses. Not "these should get you ahead if the world was a different place and by the way it jolly well ought to be". Not fitting a hypothetical world around low expectations of teachers. The world is a real demanding place and students need to be able to meet those demands.

Will read properly when I have time.

"To be an accountant, don't take Accountancy A Level".

Cannot see what harm this would do. I did Accountancy A level albeit years ago and it covered the subject well. It also gave me some exemptions when I went on to a 'new qualification called AAT, although I would recommend anyone who wants to do accountancy to forget A levels, go straight into AAT then Chartered/CIMA along with training on the job.

This is a complete bugbear of mine.

Pupils, all pupils, not just those at select schools, should be properly advised.

And whilst many schools are still trying to pretend that all qualifications are equal, how are children meant to know otherwise?

It is a scandal that pupils are not made properly aware of the implcations of their choices.
It is also a scandal that they are being encouraged to expect all learning to be fun, fun, fun.

Sometimes you just have to dig in a bit, to get what you want.

Incidentally, for anyone who wants to become a speech therapist, a good range of A-levels would be English Lang/Lit, Biology and Psychology; other relevant alternatives would be a MFL. Start a Saturday job working with people in some way, either with children, older people or people with disabilities; if no jobs available, work on regular babysitting gigs with children with language or learning problems. Get the basic work experience the NHS will offer you, it probably won't be much but it shows willing. Plan for a gap year doing the same sorts of jobs, ideally abroad so you can develop those language skills.

ICT is definitely NOT compulsory at GCSE, my 15yo is not taking it, for example. Some schools may choose to make it compulsory, but that's a different matter.

Oh, and while we're on the subject, if you are asked in a university interview why you want to study a particular subject, do NOT, particularly if the subject is a profession allied to medicine, witter on vaguely about how you want to help people and you like working with children.

You are applying to do a DEGREE course, you are expected to have an intellectual interest in the academic subjects that underpin your chosen degree. It's not just about learning a specific skillset to do the job you're aiming for.

Thinking about it, that's a pretty good explanation of why some subjects are not regarded as rigorous. I think it's to do with the fact that the less-regarded subjects are teaching skills rather than encouraging abstract thinking on theoretical topics. Sure, not everybody is suited to that, but that doesn't make it not important. If you don't enjoy abstract thinking then you shouldn't be aiming to do a degree, you should be looking at acquiring a particular set of skills and experience that will enable you to work in the job you would like to do.

Hopefully one of the more useful side-effects of the £9k fee hike will be to encourage people to think really hard about whether they want to spend 3 years at university, and a concomitant increase in good non-degree training courses and opportunities.

Appletrees - Noticed you asked on page 1 about Music / Music Technology and no response as yet.

I have always assumed Music Technology to be less respected, but guess it depends what you want to do with it.
My nephew did a Music degreee that was more geared towards Technology (about 6 years ago). He has worked in a university ever since, helping the students with the equipment etc. and also does freelance training on composing software. He is not particularly ambitious, but is happy and loves what he does.
DD wants to be an instrument teacher. I think she is more likely to go for a music degree with performance elements, than go the BEd route. Looking at some of the good Music degree courses, many students taking them go on to other professions - so they must be reasonably well respected.

Circular
Music degrees are not a big problem. They just have the precursor of Grade 8 in your chosen instrument normally!!

which comes right back to my point : get the grounding in place at up to 16 THEN specialise.

My problem with the "vocational" and "applied" and "specialist" GCSEs and A levels is that people think that a certificate makes them an expert.

I did Maths Physics and Geography at A level, then a Geography degree, then ACCA Accountancy.
I like maths but I'm not a mathematician, or physicist or even particularly a geographer
it has been the five years before exams, three years during exams and 15 years after exams that have turned me into an accountant.

EVERY child should be OFFERED the ebacc subjects.
They may not be able to pass at A* to C
but the MUST be given the CHANCE.

Thanks circular -- it does sound like my ds is similar. Obviously his ambition is to be a rock star, let's all hope he makes it ahem, but with this (it uses all the prof technology) he can move to sound engineering, studio work, teaching or sound tech management. We would hope? I really don't see the point of uni unless he goes to a college respected within the profession and we don't know what they are yet.

Thanks for your experience, I have never met or spoken to anyone who has done this and I appreciate it.

Appletrees, I would look at the Academy of Contemporary Music and Goldsmiths College in London as possible places for that kind of career. You could certainly get advice on subjects from them.

ICT as far as I know is compulsary at key stage 4, but GCSE isn't.

And just to join back in - Goldsmiths is a very well respected arts and music college. Degrees from there are really worth something later in life.

Gramercy - I am not a careers teacher, I am an impartial careers adviser. As such, I never tell students what to do. I make them aware of all the options - and if you read my posts you will see that my advice to students includes the fact that some A levels are regarded as better than others by some universities.

In this thread, however, I am expressing my view that the education system is riddled with snobbery and that some of what you may call "duff" subjects are more likely to keep some students motivated. Luckily, many universities and employers are open minded about subject choice and don't assume that non-traditional subjects are bad.

I take exception to your comment that I am "shafting" students. Please read what I am saying carefully before jumping to offensive conclusions.

Mackereltaitai I just used the Guardian/media studies/journalism example to make the point that not all employers will rubbish a media studies degree. At the same seminar, it was suggested that science degrees are useful for wannabe journalists because there is (was) a shortage of journalists who can communicate complex scientific information to the general public. So, my advice to students considering journalism would include both the above points.

You would be very foolish to think that the Guardian journalist was advocating taking a media studies degree, TheFarSide. Not holding media studies against someone, means precisely the opposite - it really is not an appropriate qualification for someone looking for a career in print journalism as any journalist will tell you.
A science degree on the other hand would certainly be useful, as would a language or history or politics or economics. Traditional academic subjects and as much work experience/student journalism as possible is still the way to go. Do not, I beg you, advise your pupils otherwise.

It's not exactly snobbery though, is it? To say x qualifications are more useful for xyz jobs?

That's the point, I'm not talking idealism, I'm talking realism, what works.

Looking at it from another side, as it were, we encouraged DS2 who was absolutely determined to study history at Uni level and is doing so now, to take Maths as his fourth A level to show that he had another side to him. He took Maths, English, History and Latin at A2 level.

History, which he adores, is not very vocational (yeah it trains the mind, researching, debating etc) so we hope that the Maths A level will be of benefit to him in the future. I might be wrong but I think the possession of Maths A level might help to keep a few extra doors open for arts graduates.

If we had our choice he'd study law after his history degree and become a lawyer. Well, I can dream....Meanwhile, he loves writing and is getting involved with Uni newspaper.

LadyGlencora - I didn't think for one moment that the journalist was advocating media studies. I have never advised a student interested in journalism to do a degree in media studies. I merely used the example on this thread to show that not every employer would reject someone who has a degree in media studies. So, fear not, the students I advise are not in any danger.

Appletrees I agree maybe snobbery is the wrong word. Some of the postings on this thread seem to be saying that the only subjects of value are English, maths, the three sciences, geography, history and a MFL - and anything slightly new or vocational is automatically inferior. I guess I am questioning why subjects like law or psychology or economics or business at GCSE or A level are regarded by some as not quite on a par with the more traditional subjects.

Not saying this applies to you, but I do see many able young people in college who were "encouraged" to do traditional subjects by their parents and ended up with U grades out of boredom with the subject - hence my view that we need to get away from valuing only a narrow group of subjects.