Violence in our schools

[Whattodo541289]

What needs to happen for the SNP to take violence in schools seriously?

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-parents-shaken-core-pupils-33219303

I wrote to the councillor quoted here to say I was shocked that he was shocked at this violence. He clearly has no idea whatsoever about what regularly happens in Scottish schools, despite heading Edinburgh’s education committee.

In order to take action the SNP would have to admit that their current inclusion policy has endangered pupils, and their flat refusal to permanently exclude pupils (Jenny Gilruth says she allows permanent exclusion, while at the same time preventing schools from doing this) has left violent thugs running wild. The SNP will never face up to and admit their failures, nothing meaningful will happen, and innocent schoolchildren will go on being brutally physically attacked by their fellow pupils.

Why are the teachers not dealing with this? If anyone was caught fighting when I was at school they were in detention for an hour that day.

What’s an hours detention going to do? An hour later these kids will be out to break more bones.

Schools can and do give temporary suspensions. The thug is sent home for a few days. Schools cannot give back to back temporary exclusions, so when the thug gets back to school they know they have 3-4 consequence-free days of bone breaking before their next suspension. Thry need to be removed from mainstream education to allow the 95% of well behaved kids to learn in peace and safety. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

And this is one of the better state schools…it’s horrifying and not an isolated incident.

I agree there needs to be permanent exclusion. Why do the right of a minority of thugs to be educated trump the rights of the majority who just want to study and have a decent time in school? Even if you’re not one of the kids have the s**t kicked out of you, it causes massive disruption to the school day. It’s awful to be scared of school. Educate these kids somewhere else with specialist teachers. All of this costs money of course and everything is being pared back to the bone. I can’t imagine being a high school teacher these days.

Really? I went to school in the 80s and even then if you were caught fighting you could expect to be suspended for a few days.

The SNP need to say - if a child violently attacks another child - then they are permanently excluded from that mainstream school and sent to a specialist school.

Children are being physically attacked in primary schools upwards and kept in the same building and classroom as the attacker.

I am a teacher and a mother and have seen it from both sides. Keeping a child in at lunchtime is not a normal consequence for them strangling another child in an unprovoked attack.

The removal of exclusion has lead to a whole generation of traumatised children who are fearful of school as they have been physically attacked there.

Yet, the government only sends out guidelines on positive behaviour strategies.

It's like saying to the police - if a woman is battered the man can stay in the house to continue battering her but the police should talk to him about how he might be making her feel.

Parents would never allow their child to set foot in a classroom again if they really knew what their child is being subjected to. They would not believe the lack of safeguarding there is today. I didn't until I became a teacher later on in life and had my child start the school system.

No one in government or higher up in local authorities is actually doing anything to protect children.

If your child is in the same co hort as a violent individual, they will be in the same room as them and if they are hurt by them, no one is responsible for that. Violent children who hurt other on nursery move onto primary and secondary without any exclusion.

There are children here with broken bones, expected to return to school with a child who has broken their bones, no doubt smirking about having got away with it Scot free. It’s outrageous on so many levels.

There are children here who from the age of 5 are supposed to go to school each day and witness - and often be subject to - violence, the likes of which they are banned from watching in the cinema.

It’s just unfathomably cruel and wrong.

@grandprismatic I was shocked to see it was Firrhill too. If this is happening in the top schools, imagine what the children go through in the worst.

@tabletricia I couldn't agree more. The bullies should be charged with assault.

Even if charged the focus is on the welfare of the person causing harm to others. They'll likely be given treats, trips away etc.

Oh but they ARE charged with assault, all the time. Do you think there are any consequences for being charged with assault? There are none! There’s a letter home to their mum, their mum who may be trying her hardest but has long since lost all control! The Scottish government have hamstrung the justice system too.

As a headmaster in a top school confided to me, there are many kids in his school with charge sheets the length of his arm and his job isn’t an educator any more, it’s safeguarding. He has to try to stop kids and staff getting seriously injured or worse, with both hand tied behind his back and in the full knowledge that if he fails, it will be him held accountable. this is a top school in a mumsnet naice area. Don’t be so naive to think that it couldn’t be your kids.

True. There is sadly little deterrant. But we need to get this violence out of our schools and the country generally needs harsher punishment. No one should live in fear but certainly not children

The SNP need to say - if a child violently attacks another child - then they are permanently excluded from that mainstream school and sent to a specialist school.

The problem with your idea is the cost. It would require probably a hundred specialist schools to be setup all over the country. Where is the money coming from and where will you find teachers willing to work in them?

Children are being physically attacked in primary schools upwards and kept in the same building and classroom as the attacker.

This isn't a new problem. It happened when I was at school and they had permanent exclusion (or expulsion as it was called) back then. It certainly wasn't common but I remember a few children being expelled. But you cannot expell every child who gets into a fight or who bullies another child. You would be excluding a large number of children.

I'm not talking about fights.

I'm talking about young children being physically attacked whilst sitting doing their schoolwork, for example. Or walking back from the toilet. Or, having been evacuated with the rest of their class, still being physically attacked as the young person has been able to enter the other room and punch, kick, pull their hair, strangle them. P2.

No suspension or exclusion.

Another example - an individual pushing child, they hurt their head on the ground but managed to stand up, then they are pushed against the wall and strangled . To the fear of their life as they couldn't breathe.

Yet, they had to continue to share the space with that child. Sent to after school as normal. Only warranted a phone call home.

This is what is happening.

Yes. Money would need to be sent on alternative provision.

On the expense issue, are our kids not with it? I went to a very rough high school where classroom disruption was commonplace but violent children were expelled. If you broke someone’s bones intentionally you wouldn’t return. Classroom disruption is commonplace in ALL schools now. So much money is given to ‘lifting children out of poverty’. What better way to lift children out of poverty by taking that money and using it to provide a safe, calm, disruption-free education? If we cannot afford to do that, we certainly cannot afford to give parents a ‘Scottish child payment’. Fix the roof first.

Correct.

Children cannot take in information when in fight it flight. It's biologically impossible.

Education is a very long term solution. Surely giving families in poverty extra money is the quickest way to lift them out of poverty.

It’s really not. Things like sure start have 5 x more benefit than £1 spent. There are no rules around what this money is spent on, it’s just a cash giveaway to parents, and due to get bigger. Things like university tuition freebies, these are far less important than tackling violence in schools. I think after a while it will pay for itself as a policy. Look at all of the staff employed as therapists in schools. It was the experience at school itself that traumatised my children. They were never happier than in the school holidays. We are giving our children mental health problems by letting it run on.

In my experience the teachers are so invested in polishing their own halo at seeing the “good child” behind the bad behaviour that they enable violence (at times serious violence) against other pupils, and simultaneously wash and wring their hands when it leads to consequences they don’t like.

What do you expect a teacher to do? They’re not allowed to touch kids so they cannot physically split up fights or stop an assault. They’re supposed to prevent such action by ‘building relationships’. It doesn’t work. They know this. They’re not allowed to do anything else though, and will get the blame when it fails. Can you imagine how frustrating that is?

The only thing the teachers are guilty of is not walking out, saying ‘up with this nonsense we will not put’.

That's horrific, but not surprising. My primary school aged child has come home with black eyes and cuts on his face from head injuries inflicted by other students, bruises all over his body and has been repeatedly held down on the ground while hard objects were thrown at his head - in front of another child and a teacher, who did nothing. I repeatedly asked the school to stop this child attacking mine, but they did nothing. Several other children have ganged up on him and attacked him in the playground. He has been viciously, physically and verbally bullied by older children because of his disabilities. I asked for the school to advise in writing how they would keep my child safe, and what the escalation process would be for future events of violence. I received an abusive call from the principal who SCREAMED down the phone at me that she would not be responding to anything in writing because none of what I had complained about was true...despite several of these incidents happening in front of witnesses and the most recent causing such upset that he couldn't actually go into class after being attacked at lunch, because he was so hysterical. I was told at pick up "an incident occured today, but it's been dealt with."

Schools deliberately deny bullying, because then they would have to deal with it.

I expect them not to take the side of violent thugs and rapists when speaking to the parents of victims.

I expect them to tell parents that this is SNP Policy, and if they want national policy changed then they need to vote differently. Occasionally I’d like them to push back against the parents of violent children by saying “We will go to court, to keep that fucking animal, who is your son, off our premises.”

Maybe I do expect them to go on strike over it.

Just read the post following yours. A Head and Teachers standing shoulder to shoulder with disgusting violence, and then denying/minimizing/ lying/accommodating.

Just taking the post after yours from C152 as an example - don’t you think that is the Head enabling violence and leaving us to infer that her actions are indicative of her character?

The teachers are prevented by the head who’s prevented by the local authorities who’s prevented by the government from doing anything. Morons keep voting for the SNP. We are waiting for a child or a teacher to die and an inquest to hold the government to account, and/or their families to sue. That’s what we’re waiting for. Until then no action will be taken.

If this happens to you I would bring it up with your most active non-SNP local politician or the press.

I should clarify, I mean if your child is assaulted you should contact the local press / politicians. I really hope no child or teacher dies, obviously!