Sending non catholic child to catholic school - Glasgow

[naemates]

DS is still pretty young, but I'm thinking ahead - mostly as I've no idea how schools work here. Assuming we have a choice, the two nearest schools are a pretty sad looking non denominational school and a much more pleasant looking Catholic school. We are not religious, but nor are we from Glasgow and since many of the schools here are Catholic, I'm assuming it's not that weird for non catholics to go to Catholic school? My non religious mum worked for her local church for a while, and I feel this would be similar to that, respecting beliefs while not having to pretend to believe? Am I miles out and being daft?

I've got no idea why you'd want to send a non Catholic child to a school that teaches according to the Catholic faith. I also happen to agree with a previous poster that all state funded schools should be secular. If parents want religious observation of any type for their children they should do it in their own time and leave schools to educate. And although I have some sympathy with why Catholic schools were set up in the first place, and why Catholic parents want to keep them, I don't feel dividing small children who ordinarily live side by side in communities on religious grounds t the age of 4 should have any place in today's society.
Look around the world. Division based on religion all over the place. Children don't see differences until someone points it out.

In the states when I was growing up, it was strict separation between church and state - so no Christmas trees, nativities, Christmas crafting etc etc in state schools. There were private schools with religious teachings but you had to pay. I was surprised at how religious my children’s’ education is here and really surprised to find out that there’s also catholic schools paid for by our taxes. (And yes, one Jewish school in Glasgow too, but hundreds of catholic schools). I personally would far prefer religion was left at home - it’s complicated and personal and just creates division needlessly. it also must be quite costly to maintain two schools in each catchment.

@SunshinePlease24 What do you mean by ‘some’ sympathy exactly? Do you mean you fully understand why they were created or that you think they weren’t really necessary?

They were created at a time when the state/established church would not educate catholic children and the Church of Scotland were busy educating their parishioners on the ‘menace’ of the Irish race, creating stereotypes and divisions that still echo today.

Now if we were starting an education system from scratch then it would, understandably, be secular.

But we are not starting it from scratch, we are talking about institutions that have been here for over a hundreds years, many owned in full or part by the Catholic Church.

Not only would it be unfair to force the closure of these schools it would be financially and politically unviable.

Imagine the optics of police officers forcing the shut down of religious schools in Scotland, which is what would have to happen, far from contributing to the end of sectarianism it would reinforce it for generations.

Everyone remembers how haunting the images of the police having to help the Holy Cross kids get to school in the 90’s, can you imagine the images of police forcing children and parents OUT of schools, is that really what you would want for Scotland?

I’m not catholic, or any religion for that matter, but if anyone things that Scotland is over Sectarianism then they either choose not to see it or live in a bubble.

Hundreds of marches a year where people sing about their hatred of Catholics, assaults on religious leaders, groups of thugs marching in city centres telling them to ‘Go Home’.

There was an article online about a planned St Patrick’s Day celebration in Glasgow on Glasgow Live yesterday and the comments below were horrific.

Yet this seems to be accepted or at least tolerated.

If it took place against Jews/Muslims or other minorities and it was a Mela Festival (which takes place in Glasgow without incident) then there would be an international outcry about it.

Yet we just accept it.

So while I accept that most people who want secular schools here have good intentions, it comes from naivety and without an understanding of the real world consequences, intentional and not.

Not in Glasgow, but my non-baptised child has attended a Catholic school since nursery and is now in secondary school. The level of religion wasn't much different to the experience I had as a child in a non-denominational school. On average the split between baptised:non baptised has been 60:40. Things like prep for first communion were done at church rather than in school.

overall she's had a very positive experience. I was worried about sex education but that seems to have been reasonably comprehensive. She also has a number of gay school friends who have been well supported

Since sending my child to a denominational school, I've heard some pretty shocking comments that have made me realise how naive I was to the level of sectarianism there is locallly.

My advice would be to visit the school if possible, my child went to the nursery attached to the primary school and I got a good sense of the nurturing environment from that.

@cazzyg I think you might be in a similar situation to me, I’m not religious at all, wouldn’t even call myself an atheist as that would imply I’ve given it any thought.

My Stepson is baptised (although not really practicing) and as such we send him to a catholic primary.

I don’t live in an area that would be the first you would associate with Sectarianism but the past few years has really opened my eyes to the ignorance/prejudice that still exists.

I actually feel a bit naive for not seeing it earlier, obviously I was aware of the more explicit things like orange walks, but to me they were just a pain holding up traffic, I didn’t think for a second how it would feel being the target of that vitriol.

But the implicit stuff, the comments, the myths that people who I previously liked have come out with is a lot harder to take.

Also contrary to belief it’s not just Glasgow and the West.

I live in England now and there are plenty of Church of England schools. My daughters went to a community infant school then the elder one transferred to the follow on junior school next door, which was C of E, and I was pretty horrified by the religious elements tbh (but my daughter had significant sen and a serious medical condition and it wasn't OK to move her) but I did make sure her sister went to a nearby community junior school instead.

I just don't see why anyone would choose a religious affiliated school if they don't practise that religion. I don't know how you explain it to the child, how the child makes sense of it. At primary the girls get confirmed and that is a huge deal.

I just wouldn't do it.

Btw my experience in Scotland was that priests would call round to families who were planning to send their kids to non denominational schools and persuade them to go with the Catholic option. My Catholic sister in law had this happen to her.

I had no idea it was so different in England! There’s so much religion in my kids’ state school - including a prayer group who has lunchtime meetings and run the assembly sometimes. Lots of activities around the Easter and Christmas stories. Some classes even visit churches for services. I kept my kids out of that one as actually learning to pray seemed a step too far.

in fairness they also do assemblies on other religions and have been lovely with my kids (as the only Jewish kids in the catchment) but that just makes for more religion in the school and ideally I’d prefer far less.

the requirements for sex education are different for the state (church of Scotland) and catholic schools so if this is important to you you should get that information. Am sure you could fill the gaps in at home if you wanted but it was definitely different in speaking to the family I know at the catholic school around the corner from me.

meeple I think you misinterpreted (deliberately or not) what I was trying to say and you also seem to be very angry for someone who has no religion and hasn't even given it enough thought to even class yourself as an atheist, but I digress.
The point being is that your insistence that faith schools should be maintained by the state using tax payers money only encourages division to continue. Let kids learn side by side and patents educate their own kids about religion as they see fit.
You'll have seen many comments above about the much small number of Catholic kids who actually practice /attend mass outside of their school environment. We're increasingly a secular society so schools should reflect that.
Bringing in police to forceably shut faith schools down? Slightly hysterical response to the idea that we should keep religion out of schools for the good of those from all religions and none and let them practice at home / in their places of worship instead.
Would be very easy to phase faith teaching out of schools gradually. No-one is stopping anyone following their faith outside of school hours. No drama required. I'd be interested to see how many did though. Religious leaders of all faith know they have a captive audience in school pupils contained in a building. Voluntary attendance not so much. That's why there would be a fight to maintain faith schools.

Digress all you want, the term ‘some sympathy’ is fairly transparent.

Anyone who was aware of the history or who was genuinely sympathetic would not prefix it with ‘some’.

Similar to -

“She has some knowledge” = vaguely aware but knows nothing.

”I have some understanding” = I have no knowledge but don’t want to admit this.

However I will ‘digress’ and go through your points.

I have not shown any ‘anger’ but the fact you have questioned my religious beliefs (or lack of) is interesting, I fail to understand why this is relevant which is why I won’t be labouring the point.

Your points about a changing society and secular schools reflecting this again on the face of it make sense, what you seem to be failing to grasp however is the reality of the situation is very different.

So I will try again.

There was a well-accepted and valid reason for catholic schools in Scotland.

These have been built up over a long time.

They have complex ownership structures with legally binding agreements, the state cannot just simply dictate what happens in them or assume ownership of many of them.

Although religious attendance is declining the schools rolls are not, although the church may have less of a role on a day to day basis, families still decide they want a catholic education for their children.

Now, and here is the part you seem to be having trouble with.

If the government announced the end of catholic education, a thing that is extremely valued by a large part of the population then do you really believe it could be implemented with no resistance?

There would be parent protests, trade union involvement, legal challenges (which would very likely succeed due to previous legislation), political pressure and also an absolutely astronomical financial bill.

The social factors would, unlike the educate everyone together fairytale and unicorn world you described, cause a massive spike in sectarian tension, allowing a picture to be painted that the state could just destroy a key tenant of catholic culture without any recourse.

The triumphant behaviour of the more bigoted parts of the Scottish population would be a sickening sight in itself.

As for the ‘hysterical’ thought of police having to drag people out of schools, that is very possible.

All it takes is sit-down protests, a tactic that would likely be deployed if the state were forcing this, how else would they be cleared?

Another question to ask yourself is if this is such a good popular idea then why do no politicians of any note make any effort ti make it happen?

The answer is quite simple, they are well aware of the minefield it would cause and the damage to society as a result. It would likely end their careers.

It will never happen.

Ideally religion should be taken right out of state schools
I can see there are difficulties in achieving this, I do think it would be for the best

@Motheranddaughter Yes, it’s a classic case of policy without pragmatism.

Am now curious to know the rates of attendance at faith schools for children of that actual faith. Perhaps the need for division by religion is decreasing and this will just gradually phase out eventually.

am aware there are more non Jewish children at the one Jewish school in Glasgow than Jewish families. I don’t think there are actually enough Jews in Scotland to maintain the need for a specific school - and the very religious Jewish families would homeschool regardless. Given the experiences noted on this thread, it sounds like somewhere around 50% of children at catholic schools aren’t actually catholic so I’m wondering what need is being met with this choice that isn’t met elsewhere. Are parents looking at logistics or school size or less robust sex education at school or… what?

personally I still see no need for my taxes to support faith based education of either my own or someone else’s so would very much support a move away from it. Outside the challenges of my children being the only people at their schools of their religion (I have one in high school and one in primary), they’ve only benefitted from having friendships with people of various faiths - and of course of no faith. I wouldn’t like to think we would want to encourage stratification by religion forever.

@PurpleThistle7 Think this speaks to whether the state just just finance a ‘one side fits all’ approach or maintain an established choice.

The tax argument, although often rolled out, is a bit of a fallacy, as our taxes are (mostly?) spent on things that we wouldn’t necessarily always support.

Plus people who do support religious schools pay taxes as well, why would your views take precedence.

To be honest though this argument could go on forever but the fact is it’ll never happen.

Could you imagine the political optics of a government forcing the closure of any religious, especially a solitary Jewish school?

I suppose I question my taxes being used to support 'two' schools in a catchment when one larger school properly resourced could achieve the same number of educated children. And at the moment I'm not sure there'd be a massive protest at closing the Jewish school in Glasgow. I just can't work out why we need two different educational plans, two head teachers, two school grounds being maintained etc etc.

i think it will happen, I certainly hope so

@Motheranddaughter Ok, so what politician will be brave enough to raise this?

Why would they when their opponents will just oppose the policy to attract the votes of Catholics?

Not a fight any of them with any sense would pick.

If you feel that strongly about it you should maybe raise your head above the parapet and campaign for it yourself.

@PurpleThistle7 It very rarely is a case of 1:1 in regards to school catchments.

In most areas it’s usually closer to 3:1 or 4:1.

Your opinion is a valid one, but worth no more than those who support the schools.

If any politician seriously tried to end catholic education then it would become a wedge issue, even ignoring the social ramifications the vote that supports the schools would be too high for it to pass.

Then perhaps the catholic schools should become much smaller and involve a proportionally higher cohort of actual catholics? The one in my catchment is about half the size of our school. If we assume around half those kids are catholic, that's a tiny minority of children in my neighbourhood who would be affected. Maybe it will come to a vote eventually - and like you said, we'd both get an equal chance to have our voices heard!

@PurpleThistle7 So on one hand you want to close catholic schools then on the other hand you want to make them less diverse?

Catholic schools, despite the myths, are open to everyone.

All you need to do is read the experiences of people on this thread.

Non-catholic parents choose them for many reasons, whether it is for moral, convenience or academic reasons is irrelevant.

As for your comments about the Jewish school, I live beside it, and also to the majority of the Jewish population in Scotland.

No matter what your position on the Israel/Palestine situation the Jewish community in Glasgow should not be in a position where security around synagogues/schools is that much of a concern, but here we are.

The fact you honestly don’t think it would be an issue closing the only Jewish school in Scotland is that naive it’s actually amusing.

I can picture the headline in The Jewish Voice just now.

There seems to be this opinion (online especially) that we live in some sort of secular paradise now and religion doesn’t matter.

While many share that view it really isn’t true.

Our head of state is the head of the national church, bishops sit in the House of Lords etc..

Ultimately it’s a policy that won’t win many votes but will cost a lot of them.

I think the decline in people attending church will inevitably lead to faith schools becoming obsolete
Lots of people would support this

@Motheranddaughter No evidence of that at all, the Catholic schools where I live have a waiting list to get in.

There also seems to be a bit of a disconnect between understanding what the Catholic community have evolved into.

Yes, they aren’t as likely to be at mass every week, but they are likely to have attended catholic schools, send their kids to catholic schools, get their children baptised/confirmed and use the church for weddings/funerals etc..

These are as much tribal rights of passage as religious festivals.

If it meant nothing to them then the school’s attendances would have dwindled, but that’s not happened.

Plus the elephant in the room is that there are still parts of Scotland where many wouldn’t be comfortable sending catholic children to school, especially if they had a recognisably Irish name.

My friend’s son had a terrible time at school, assaulted and chased home many times and rounded upon online, that was Troon, again not an area you would initially associate with sectarian behaviour.

As long as the country tolerates behaviour like that and allows Orange Marches then I will support Catholic Schools.

Thank you for sharing your views. I am fine with disagreeing about this. At some point hopefully we will get to vote about it and see what people actually want.

meeple
I don't think you are really taking on board what people are saying, or that you believe that an opinion that faith schools perpetuate division is a valid one.

I don't want my children separated from their neighbours at the age of 4 because of religious beliefs. It's as simple as that.

And your outrage at the use of 'some sympathy' is misjudged. I simply meant that I fully understand the need for Catholic school when they were originally set up however I no longer do. That goes for any faith before I'm accused of having a flute and a sash.
Educate children about religion firmly outside of school buildings. That's what places of worship are for.
I too feel that this is inevitable as society continues to shift.

I’m not sure people realise that It is compulsory for all state-funded schools in England to teach RE, regardless of whether that school has a religious affiliation or not.

Parents have a legal right to withdraw their children for all or part of the lessons but that is the same in religious schools too.

If I withdrew my child from every time they talked about Christmas they’d have to stay home for quite a lot of December and April. In December they make Christmas ornaments, have a nativity they rehearse for endlessly, decorate the classroom for Christmas, sing Christmas carols at the retirement home next door, have Christmas jumper day… it goes on and on. So I’d guess if you wanted to withdraw your child from religious instruction in a catholic school you’d have even less school in December than at the regular school.

I agree with various posters on here that of course there was a safety reason to have this option years ago but I’d hope we would (or could be encouraged to) move on. I wouldn’t want to see children split up into schools by religion at all at some point. Do you think we should have Muslim schools now as Muslim children experience prejudice? what about children of various ethnic backgrounds? I would hope we would want to move towards a society of inclusion instead of division.

(my daughter was physically attacked for being Jewish twice now and I still don't think the answer is that she should only be around Jewish children. That will only lead to more problems in my opinion)