Six subjects in S4 the norm?

[DeathStarCanteenGal]

DD is about to pick her subjects for S4 and can only pick 6 subjects - which she will then do at anything from Nat 3 to Nat 5 level, depending in what the school think she will pass. Although she seems quite bright and quite conscious, so au hope Nat 5s are doable
But given I did eight subjects at S4 this just doesn't seem like a lot - however I fully accept I was at high school back in the 80s and thing have changed since then, so wondered if this is the norm?
school say they do this because it is what 'most students' can cope with

Maths, English, a language, a science, a social science and then you have three to play with. If you just do 6 are there some kids not doing a science after s2? Or a language? Or a social science? This seems extremely narrow.

S4 (NAT5):
Maths
English
A Science
A Language
A Social Subject
A Second Science/Second Language/Second Social Subject/Practical Subject

S5 (H):
English
4 other Hs or 3 other Hs and one extra Nat 5

S6 (Adv H):
3 x Adv H OR
1/2 Adv H and either 1-3 Higher/Nat 5/other qualification.

It's possible to get a good level of results this way. If your child's school offers 8 or 10 Nat5s, then so be it. It's not the end of the world if they offer 6 though.

Not really sure tbh! The top 2 classes do both. I don't know if it's incase they fail the maths they have apps as back up.

Perhaps, but Nat 5 Maths is a fair workload so concentrating on that might end up with more passes at actual Nat 5? Not being critical of Apps per se, as it's still useful for many folk, but a bit redundant if you have Nat5 Maths? Some pupils at my son's school do Nat5 Maths in S4, others do Apps in S4 and Nat5 in S5, others do Nat4 in S4, Apps in S5 and Nat5 in S6. Of course some go on to do Higher in S5 or S6 too. Some just give up on Maths after S4 if they don't need it/are better at other things.

Yeah I didn't realise until recently that they do both. My sons class have just finished the nat 5 maths course last week so are now finishing maths apps then just revision till exam. I dont know of any other schools in the area that do both.

Our school gave some kids the option of both Maths and Apps and some took it. There were extra sessions after school (optional) and the kids were not really "taught" - it was more here's the past papers, go away and try to do them, anything you're not sure about come back and see us and we'll help.

I think there are a few, based on exam results I've seen. Based on enthusiasm at Nat5 I'm not sure DSs friends would have appreciated doing Apps at the same time! I think they covered a lot of the Apps coursework content though, in S3, even though they didn't officially take an exam. DS is done with marhs now, got what he needed and happily waved cheerio! 🤣🤣🤣

DD literally got told last year she'd be sitting Apps prelim, they didn't get a separate class or anything, just covered some off during class time. Did one last paper as part of revision and she really enjoyed it.

Asked at parents night if we were okay with her sitting the exam and teacher said it's common sense and she did well in prelim.

So she'll sit 11 exams in May if you account for double papers. This is from 7 subjects.

For S5 she has to drop two subjects which is at the mercy of the 'column' system with a view to picking up more in S6

I've got a daughter in S2 and am navigating all this for the first time (I'm English although have been in Scotland a long time) and this is what concerns me about her only being able to do 6 Nat 5s in S4. We're also in West Lothian (different school to the OP if Italian is an option, definitely not at ours!) and six seems to be the norm in the authority although some schools offer 7, and this doesn't seem to correlate with likely outcomes, it's not the 'best' (in results terms) schools that offer 7.

The argument for only doing 6 seems to be twofold:

1. they timetable to work across S4/5/6 because that gives the most options across the three years, which I have some sympathy with
2. you can do any subject you like at higher regardless of whether you did it in S3/4, which I'm somewhat sceptical about - I can see it for say history (especially if you did modern studies in the meantime and learnt relevant skills), but French? Physics? Obviously you could go back and fill in the Nat 5 in S5 and do a higher in S6, but that doesn't help if it's a subject you need for uni and they're only interested in the 5 highers you sat in S5.

The approach seems to work if your metric is most qualifications by the end of S6, but when you've got bright kids who will be aiming for competitive uni places that need 5 excellent highers in one sitting in specific subjects, the choice of nat 5s is crucial so you're expecting them to know at 14 what they're going to want to do at uni. Clearly some kids do and that's great, but what about those who have the ability to study across a very broad range and are having to narrow hugely, which realistically will narrow their options later on?

And don't get me started on them being encouraged not to do 3 sciences in S3 - they've only studied general science up to now, how are they meant to know which ones they want to do? Doing all 3 is allowed, but you have to get special permission which seems ridiculous.

We had the same problem with needing special permission to do 3 sciences too. Coming from England where triple science is encouraged, I found this very peculiar.

My son's school allow 3 sciences at Nat 5, along with English, Maths and one other subject of choice which fits in with timetable. 'Crash' Higher in any science would be possible but some catching up/extra work would be needed like with any subject.

@StickChildNumberTwo
"The approach seems to work if your metric is most qualifications by the end of S6."

I genuinely can't understand this argument. How are they, as a group, getting more qualifications by doing less for two years? Is this based on the idea that people taking 8 might fail more than two of them? If that is the reason, surely they can make this decision as they go along rather than starting with the lower bar.

My DD is choosing her Nat5s just now and will likely do 8 Nat5s in S4, 5 highers in S5 and 1 higher and 3 advanced highers in S6. This is fairly standard for all the schools in my area, maybe not the extra higher in 6th year.

Her closest friend is now in private school and she gets to sit Nat5 maths in S3, so she will come out with one more qualification in the same timeframe - that is straightforward, so I can understand it!

It's not just about how many they get though.
The thing is, if a school does 6 they do 6, no amount of debating will change that. It's possible to get a good set of Nat5's/Highers/Advanced Highers no matter whether you do 6, 7, 8 or even 10 Nat5's to start with!
It isn't a 'lower bar' to do less, that's just what that school has opted to offer/feel they can offer. A child who happens to go to a school doing 8 as standard isn't better than a child going to a school which offers 6! Nat5's honestly do become less relevant the minute you have a Higher, and Highers also become less relevant to some degree the minute you have an Advanced Higher!

I actually didn't do any Adv Highers, or CSYS as they were called then, because I had achieved 5 good Higher passes in S5 (Maths, English, another two as follow-ons from the 7 Standard/Ordinary Grades I achieved, and one as a 'crash'). I still managed to get a degree and a PhD from two different but both highly respected Universities. People get far too stressed about Nat5's and also put far too much importance on them. Work hard, do your best, get good passes - but they are not the be all and end all, they are just the first step.

Also, comparing private to state isn't helping anything!

It’s holding back more capable students. If a student is capable of 8 good passes then it’s FAR more useful to them to have that opportunity than to be stuck with only 6 and have them have to do the extra work of a crash higher in s5 when they have finally decided on a future focus and realise which subjects they need to do at higher.

But if suits less able students then the Scottish government will go for that. Closing the attainment gap by dragging the more able down.

That's really not what's happening at all.
6 or 8 or even 10 Nat5 passes won't often make much of an overall difference to how a student proceeds toward Higher, Adv Higher or beyond.

It’s not the number of passes that counts, it’s the number of subjects a pupil has to choose from for their highers, without having to crash a higher. It’s the number of subjects a pupil has tried to know whether it’s something they have an aptitude for and enjoy.

No, I'm not sure I follow either really. It does enable them to keep some more options open in terms of the timetable (eg one of the modern languages this year is a joint higher/nat 5 class because they didn't have enough interest to run either of them separately, which I find astonishing (everyone at my school had to do French GCSE) but apparently it's a Scotland-wide thing with the drop in numbers for languages. But then if you can only do 6 subjects I'm not surprised many people drop them.)

The setup for your DD sounds much more sensible to me, to keep the breadth that enables a wider choice for highers without having to crash them (which sounds like a nightmare option if you've got a year or more's curriculum to catch up on). Of course for kids who aren't heading for uni and where the most important thing is to get them enough Nat 4/5s to enable their next steps, the options should be whatever will best enable them to thrive.

It’s been explained several times already, so maybe you need to be more clear about what you don’t understand.

If a pupil takes 8 N5s they have more choice when it comes to reducing that for Highers. Conversely if they only take 6 they are restricted. Essentially it means some kids are choosing their careers in S2. Yes, not all of them, but some of them.

Those doing 6 Nat5s at my son's school have pretty much all managed to choose 5 subjects for S5, many following on from Nat5 subjects and/or sitting 5 Highers in one go. Some will crash a subject which they didn't do Nat5 in, but did do up to S3, so they do have some basics. It's really not the issue it's being made out to be.

I understand fine thanks.
It's not the issue it's being made out to be.

Noneof this back and forth is helping OP.

Just because it’s not an issue for you, doesn’t mean it’s not an issue.

And you don’t seem to be understanding.

You are essentially saying that, because anecdotally some kids you know manage to do 5 Highers, it’s not an issue.

Other people are telling you that it is an issue for many kids because they can’t do the Highers they wanted to do. There have been restricted by having to down-select too early.

If 6 is what is offered then that's what you work with. There's no point going on and on about how 8 would be better, when OPs school offers 6, and in reality most people can and do make that work perfectly well.

Well we can absolutely agree that “going on and on” is not helpful 😂

Going on specifically about why '8 is better' is what isn't any help to OP.

@Skiptogetfit I know sections of Mumsnet live to bash the Scottish Government - but I don't think this is anything to do with them. It will either be a decision made by the local authority (which is Labour) or the school.
My concern remains that for kids like my daughter - who doesn't know what she wants to do but seems reasonably bright and hard working - then six Nat 5s might be limiting her options.
yes I get that she can go back and do more subjects later, but at the moment the plan is university (although no clue where and what to study, sigh) so having five passes at Higher in one sitting could be important
but however much I don't like it, I'm not going to be able to change it - and I can also see how making everyone pick six subjects makes for easier timetabling
my question was about how normal it was for S4 students to only do six subjects, and there does seem to be quite a wide variation, which is interesting. Don't think I could cope with her stress levels if she was to do 10 though!
she's generally a decent kid, so I hope she will find her way...