Scottish teachers strikes

[museumum]

How have other Scots found the teachers strikes?
I’m seeing a lot of stress from English parents I know on Fb as well as on mn but it seems to me in my bit of Scotland parents have said “fair dos” to the teachers and just got in with things/arrangements quietly.

I’m not sure this is necessarily good for the teachers cause….

interested to hear from other Scots around the country….?

ds had some classes with shared teachers in secondary (no idea if they were job share or just the way the timetables fell).

For French it worked absolutely fine as the teachers worked well together and each focused on different skills talking/vocab etc.

For other subjects it was a nightmare for him, especially chemistry in S5, I honestly don't see how it could work effectively for any stem subject. The STEM teachers at ds's school were also very vocal to the students that they hated doing shared classes because it just didn't work and said they couldn't do anything about it. Leaving the pupils struggling and feeling they were getting raw deal. ds was also very stressed out with those classes.

Without conflating the issues with resources/budgets/workload, schools really should be doing whatever is necessary to avoid multiple teachers in certain subjects as it does have a very significant negative impact on students. If that means only offering teachers in certain key subjects part-time on days that suit the timetable so they do teach the same class, or not at all, then so be it, many professions do not allow part-time if it impacts business needs.

In any employment there has to be valid reasons for refusing any request for part time hours and I don’t think anecdotal evidence from pupils would count.

This thread does seem to have turned into a teacher bashing one tbh. The title should, perhaps, be updated..

Its not difficult to find a valid reason to say no to part time work

Good luck in finding enough staff if teachers are not allowed to job share.

Part time and job share are v different things though.

And thankfully schools as employers realise the benefits to keeping valuable, experienced staff who are established members of the school community in part time contracts rather than losing them to supply. Which given the current staffing climate is very tempting for teachers who might need to reduce their hours for a raft of reasons.

Well this thread has taken a turn. Imo flexible working options should be open to everyone including teachers and can only be a good thing. They do require managing properly though to make sure everyone benefits.

I came on to say the offer that's been put forward for NHS (and RCN are recommending members to accept) is broadly similar to what teachers have refused - teacher are greedy and out of touch.

It would see a classroom teacher earning £47k within 5 years of entering the profession. This is simply not possible elsewhere in the public sector. For example a nurse at the same stage of their career would be on £37.5k (with the new paydeal). To reach the same pay level as an ordinary classroom teacher a nurse would need to be highly specialised and undergo lots of additional training. Plus teachers have fixed working hours and great holidays whereas NHS have unsociable hours and shift work to contend with. When it's public money we're talking about then salary scales should be broadly aligned in terms of qualification level and experience.

The erosion of pay argument doesn't stand with me because this is not unique to teachers. It has happened impacted almost every single working person over the last few years. As was pointed out by another poster immediate inflationary rises will only further fuel inflation.

Nurses have been offered 7.5 + 6.5. They also have the opportunity for overtime, which teachers do not.

Entry requirements are also significantly lower for nursing- 3 Highers at Bs/Cs vs 4 Highers.

FWIW my partner is a solicitor for a city council in Scotland and makes about 55k. We have very similar academic histories- 4 year undergrad, 1 year diploma, then into probation year for me and traineeship for her.

I am under significantly more stress, leave earlier and work later. I also fund a lot more of my job, from colouring pens, snacks, toys, bought resources etc. Last week I was headbutted and punched.

Can we please stop saying that teachers turned down the new offer? We didn’t, we didn’t get the chance to vote if we are in the EIS. I spend a considerable amount of my income on making my classroom work. I am not aware of nurses having to buy needles, gloves or face masks in order to do their job. It is the equivalent basics which are missing in classrooms- glue, colouring pencils and pens. Like a previous poster I was assaulted at work again just before half term. This time I ended up being sent to hospital to be checked. We all know that sadly assaults are too common among NHS workers but they are not expected to see their attacker every single day at work after that. The child who attacked me has done it several times before and he is put straight back into my classroom.

I'm so sorry that's happened to you. I can't understand why some schools appear to be the only place in society where violence/ physical assaults do not result in severe consequences for the perpetrator. This must change.

Nurses have been offered 7.5 + 6.5. They also have the opportunity for overtime, which teachers do not.
Entry requirements are also significantly lower for nursing- 3 Highers at Bs/Cs vs 4 Highers

Not all nurses have been offered that - it depends on their grade www.gov.scot/publications/nhs-staff-pay-offer/#Pay%20scales Not all nurses have the opportunity for overtime, it depends whether funding is available - and their enhancements (is that what you mean by o/t?) are based on working nights, public holidays and weekends, which teachers don’t do. Entry levels are lower but those are the minimum and are often higher, depending on numbers applying and progress onto higher bands (which are less well paid than equivalent teachers) require Masters or evidence that you’re working at Masters level. Usually at that level you have responsibilities which include significant accountability for things like budgets, staff learning and development, a department, team or service, patient care, and so on.

I'm an AHP (think OT, physio etc) & we do not get overtime.

Most of us work extra unpaid hours in the NHS - we are salaried.

The nurses in our teams are the same.

Only a band 7 will earn 47K - and they are few & far between. The vast majority (90%) will not get to that level, even after all these years - and certainly not within 5.

Most of the 6's have worked 20-30+ years in the role, working as prescribers, taking on advanced practitioner roles & being a charge nurse - on 40K max.

I think the teaching unions are really out of touch & delusional. It's a shake that teachers did not get to vote on the offer.

I support teachers, BTW - it's awful to be assaulted at work.

It's not a race to the bottom, but perhaps a dose of reality is needed.

Agree @ProseccoOnIce I think many people forget the nurses are only part of the NHS and that there are many other NMAHP professions

I personally feel that nurses should have a separate pay scale from AHP's, but that's another story.

We are having massive issues with recruitment- and no wonder.

For 2 years, we worked at around 50% capacity, still having to fulfil services. It was just awful. I used to come home from work some Fridays & just go straight to bed. It was unsafe & I felt totally overwhelmed.

Things are better for now, but it will happen again.

Agree @ProseccoOnIce people don't realise it's not just nurses that will never get much beyond £40k in nhs.
And upthread someone mentioned entrance qualifications. Some AHP courses (particularly SLT and physio) need at least 5 Highers all at As and Bs

Nobody can force you to buy classroom resources with your own money, if you don't want to then don't do it.
Being assaulted at work is awful and nobody should have to be subjected to that.
If these are the things that you feel strongly about then strike about resourcing and conditions - not pay. I'd certainly suppor that.

Teachers are paid enough and the original 5% offer was a good one. You've been offered more and EIS declined it - so out of touch.

Teachers buy resources because if they didn’t they know how much the children would miss out. They do it because they know what is needed and they want the best for the children. They do it because children come to school hungry. However this doesn’t suit the narrative that teachers are selfish, lazy, underworked and just out for themselves. Schools have always ran on goodwill but the goodwill they’ve relied on is running out. It’s not infinite. Other sectors may do the same but it’s up to those members to draw their own line in the sand.

And you honestly think by giving teachers the pay awards they want that council budgets won’t be even more adversely affected than they are at the moment and teachers won’t have to buy even more out of their own pockets as a result? I’m curious though - I have friends who are teachers in a variety of schools and none of them fund school resources. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but I suspect this is down to spending priorities by the HT and senior team in individual schools, given that school budgets are already reduced like other public services.

You can’t strike for those reasons though..

Anyway, this thread has become more about teachers being out of touch etc and how nhs staff and teachers should be paid exactly the same and if they aren’t then it definitely isn’t fair, nor is it allowed.

Maybe just change topic to nhs are unhappy with the pay award that was accepted and now annoyed teachers haven’t accepted the same thing.

You can’t strike for those reasons though.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-63152705
news.stv.tv/north/teachers-at-northfield-academy-in-aberdeen-balloted-for-strike-action-over-unacceptable-violence-from-pupils

Maybe just change topic to nhs are unhappy with the pay award that was accepted and now annoyed teachers haven’t accepted the same thing.

I am a taxpayer so pay the wages rather than receive them. I can not justify more of my taxes going to pay teachers more when the equivalent NHS jobs are paid so much less. Or when it will mean cuts in education services such as loss of support staff and pupil assistants. I think there are better places for my taxes to go, or they can stay in my pocket.

Oh look :

theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2023/02/speech-therapy-cuts-will-hit-the-most-vulnerable/

SLT cuts to schools unrelated? First of many such...

And I am a NHS employee who was happy to accept a lesser offer than teachers refused - because I'm a realist.

There's some real 1970's-union thinking with the teachers strike.

"Maybe just change topic to nhs are unhappy with the pay award that was accepted and now annoyed teachers haven’t accepted the same thing."

My partner and many family members and friends work in the NHS, they are all very happy with the pay deal and think it's realistic given the current pressures. I haven't seen or heard from one person who's said they are unhappy with NHS pay award.

It's not about putting one professional against another it's about being realistic.

I seem to remember that after the financial crisis in 2008 public sector workers were given a 20% across the board pay cut. The messaging was that the government couldn’t afford up pay what was being requested, and they could take the drop in pay or leave it.

I was listening to a junior doctor bemoan the erosion in their real terms pay over the past 10 or so years with real frustration. Many workers - public sector and private - have had an erosion in their real terms pay. It’s a fact of living in troubled economic times. Public sector workers do at least have little threat of being made redundant.

teachers may deserve a big pay rise, but if the money isn’t there (for whatever reason) then the money isn’t there.