Contemplating a move (back) to Scotland after 20 years

[Chocchops72]

DH and I left Scotland 20 years ago. In those years we've lived down under for a while and currently live in France, having acquired 2 DSs along the way, who are currently 15 and 12. We've always kept an open mind about coming 'back' to Scotland, and recent events (Covid, Brexit, ageing parents, feeling less integrated in France) are leading us to contemplate a move.

Not going to bore you with all the details but I'd say our main motivations to move back are:
Wanting to be physically closer to ageing parents to spend time and to help out.
Wanting to spend more time with our siblings and our DSs only cousin (we are a small family)
Wanting our DSs to spend more time with their families: it's quite a rootless feeling not having any family around (we used to visit / holiday together a lot but old age / covid put the kibosh on that).
Concerns about whether our boys / we are a good fit for the complex, elitist, world of French secondary and higher education. I know what I'm doing in Scotland, it's a horrible feeling not being able to advise my kids when they are looking for help.
Wanting them to have the option of going to Uni in Scotland, and not being treated / charged as International students
Our own retirement. I'm fine here, I've made lots of friends through the baby years. But DH has never settled socially - French people tend to spend a lot of time with family, there isn't the same 'pint after work on a Friday' culture - and he's worried that we'd end up isolated and lonely - especially if our children decide not to stay in France long-term and it's just us.

My / our main concerns are...
Boys fitting in both socially and into the education system. I've no idea what exams etc they would face. This summer they will be 15 and 12. Both are fluent English speakers and readers, but the writing / expression is well behind. Both are fairly academic.
Jobs: DH is a teacher. He'd have to find a job, and make the move from the French private to the Scottish state system. He was teaching in Scotland before we left 20 years ago, but I honestly don't know if he has the energy to make that move. For me... God knows. I have a PhD (earned in Scotland) but never 'did' anything academic with it. I worked in my field on and off, but we moved around, then I took 10 years off as a SAHM. I've been working in an international school for 5 years now - admin, planning, communications etc. It's pretty piecemeal and my CV is pretty incoherent tbh. And I'm 50 now.
Healthcare: it's excellent here in France. The headlines about the NHS worry me, but maybe that's England rather than Scotland? I do know that my dad has been waiting over 2 years for a knee replacement, which would be unheard of here. My mum, who had breast cancer previously, has been told that as she's over 75 she is no longer priority for mammograms: again, that wouldn't happen here.

What do you think? Would you make the move? What's it like in Scotland just now? For education / healthcare/ standard of living / politically?

Yes I would move back with the description you give. It may not be easy, but for the university fees alone I would do it. We are also abroad.

It sounds like a move would be the right thing. I live here, the NHS and everything else is as shambolic here as elsewhere in the UK so you need to be realistic about that.

I wouldn’t do it. You have friends there. Your kids are settled at school. The healthcare system is much better where you are. The weather is better. Teaching in Scotland after 20 years after a French private school would be a massive shock to the system . It’s pretty hard to make friends in Scotland too. The only thing in favour is being closer to family, but sometimes that isn’t as idyllic as you might expect. I speak from experience.

Healthcare is shite, I'd recommend you budget for private health insurance. Politically the country is a mess, stuck between the SNP/Green shambles here and Tory shambles in London - absolutely dire. But the heart wants what it wants. If your children are happy to move back, I'm sure they'll do fine - the 15 y/o would probably have exams next year. Some private schools offer the international Baccalaureate - maybe that would be more akin to what they've done in France. Best of luck - personally I think all the above are semantics - if you want it, you'll make it work.

I moved back to Scotland after decades of being away. I’d spent 15 years in Benelux and thought I’d grow old there. Then one day I woke up and thought “ok, I’m done - time to go home”.

I’ve never regretted and it often feels like “that life” (ie abroad) was loved by someone else.

I will say it was a culture shock at first, so many things had changed that you just don’t notice on visits home - otoh there’s less “town hall” bollocks and a lot more simply KNOWING it’s the DVLA who deals with X!

healthcare varies upon area - eg last Monday I saw the dentist within 2 hours of phoning… otoh I’m glad I never had to do a uk maternity ward!

Best of luck - personally I think all the above are semantics - if you want it, you'll make it work.

I'm sure you're right, I'm working through this in my head and it's good to get it out. We haven't spoken to either kids or family about it. For me, it's such a shift. DH was always the one that wanted to travel particularly away from Scotland, he was a huge fan of the boys being bilingual etc etc and I followed his lead. But now, it's him that wants to head back - and I'm more reluctant. I just had my hours at work increased to being full-time. The boys are settled in school here - it's hard and odd (for me) but it's what they know. The oldest has a girlfriend and lots of friends. The youngest is shy, and I think he'd find it hard to start over at a new school (despite having moved around we always said we'd stay out to see the children through school). The SNP / Green thing does worry me, not that France doesn't have its own political issues 🙄

Even more reasons not to leave.

It's very difficult being a distance from parents as they get older so I understand your feelings re that aspect.
But I think education wise you've left it a bit late for your eldest to slot into the Scottish system in the exam years. The thinking is generally that they need to join by S3, even younger if they're not currently being taught in English.

You're also more likely to have issues with them fitting in socially at that age than younger. Although that is probably area dependant in Scotland as Edinburgh and Glasgow are certainly well used to pupils coming from overseas.

Sorry that's not very helpful but I think you need to look very carefully into the different education systems and make sure you are not going to hugely disadvantaged your eldest

Let me preface this by saying that I am not Scottish. But I think you would be buying into a version of Scotland that doesn't really exist as you knew it. Scottish healthcare is even more threadbare than the NHS, and Scotland's once superb education system is, if I read clearly, failing on almost every count. I would stick with France. Possibly a move to a city with very good flight links back to Scotland so it was straightforward to visit family or invite them to your home?

If you can afford your sons French uni tuition fees, than it's a no brainier to stay in France.

1. You have friends in France, so you're not completely isolated.
2. You have a ok admin type job, no guarantee you'll find something equivalent here in Scotland, especially as a 50 year old. Sadly some workplaces have ageism. Unless you're willing to risk getting a job much worse.
3. It pretty much is guaranteed that you're DH will get a nasty shock to the system going from private French school to state school in Scotland. Teachers in UK are stretched working 60 hour weeks as standard (doing class plans etc on weekends and evenings)
4. Your sons sounds settled socially in France, at such ages, sounds like a major upheaval, to be avoided unless necessary.
5. In retirement your DH can join a golf club etc, he would have to make effort not to be isolated. He would have to do this whether in UK or France. As aging parents pass away, and DH's siblings have their own lives too.
6. As you and DH age, you'll need the good quality French healthcare.
7. Visit your Scottish family in all the holidays etc, as much as you can, whilst their still here.

I dunno, OP, but I have the same feeling about where I am (Switzerland), and moving back to England. My dad died last year, but I worry about my mum and being isolated from the broader family. On the other hand, I too worry about the NHS and cost of living. I have a job I love, and which pays well here and the children are settled. But a pp put it well when she said that the heat wants what it wants.

Echoing @magicofthefae . I think you will face huge ageism in the UK, and at 50 it is likely to hit you harder than most. I did a PGCE at 50, and no one even wanted to talk to me about a job. Too old, opinionated and difficult to manage.

I’m definitely aware of that, we have only been in Scotland for holidays and that’s not like living there at all. times will have changed.

Possibly a move to a city with very good flight links back to Scotland so it was straightforward to visit family or invite them to your home?

we have this already, except for them being able to stay with us (small apartment). It’s more that they can’t / don’t want to now. MIL is in a home, FIL won’t travel now, SIL can’t afford it. My parents do come over but much less often, and my Sis has no kids / limited holidays - so she doesn’t always want to come to France, and her partner wouldn’t want to holiday with us (he’s not a fan of children).

in the past it worked really well: we’d all meet up at my parents holiday home for extended time together, 2-3 times a year. it just doesn’t work now, and we aren’t sure what to replace it with. Us going to Scotland twice a year is proving unsustainable: accommodation and car hire is so expensive now! And we end up doing nothing else as we can’t afford to do that and have a family holiday somewhere else. I’m stunned at how much Airbnb and car hire costs in Edinburgh these days!

Really? I had contemplated that actually. I was accepted to do a PGCE 20 years ago but went to NZ instead. There isn’t a teacher shortage then? Or there is, but only in the hardest of schools?

I really don't want to write this @Chocchops72 but it's starting to sound like there is your life and their lives, and the separation is already there. If no one wants to travel or can afford to travel and stay anywhere they will be comfortable for more than a weekend, then I would choose the option that would suit my children best. French university fees are much cheaper than the UK.

If you can afford your sons French uni tuition fees, than it's a no brainier to stay in France.

it’s a lot more complicated here than that unf. I’m still trying to get my head around it. Universities do exist and they are cheap, but they are not at the top of the academic ladder at all. There is no selection for admissions so huge huge numbers, and a high drop out rate. More prestigious courses, like medicine or law, operate on a concours each year ie competitive exams, and anyone who’s before a certain grade is kicked off the course, so only the best students make it through to the end. The most high ranking higher education institutes are the grandes écoles- Science Po, ENSA etc - and they are a whole other complicated and competitive route.

Just choosing a subject, choosing a few Unis, and applying by UCAS is a lot more straightforward…. Unless you are deemed to be an Eu or international student 🙄

I did a PGCE at 50, and when I sent my CV to schools (it was a career change, after a successful life in industry) no one replied. Not one. Unless you want to work/live in a shit area. But our life is in Cornwall, where the dream comes with clotted cream on top. And here, schools are still getting applications for jobs. Actually I can't back that up, because I have now hit retirement age.

I would work out what's best for your children and discuss pros and cons with them as they are old enough.
My parents moved us into different schools when I was 15 and I struggled. Things worked out in the end as they always do .
However I would also saying dealing with aging parents at a distance is hard and I've just lost my dad. Trying to support mum from 400 miles away is tough

Lots to think about.
NHS isn't the same as French healthcare but you don't pay as much for it. Scotland education at university level is excellent and free for Scottish citizens

I’d be inclined to stay in France for your sons’ education. I think your elder son would struggle with the social and educational change at that age. Subject selection happens at 14 then it’s 2 years of focus on those 8 subjects. If his English literacy isn’t great, I personally think the time he has to do well on his National 5s is too limited given the information you’ve shared. What happens if you all move back and he doesn’t get in to university? If that’s not a problem, and he’s willing to make away from his social group to make new friends here, then go for it.
It’s a difficult decision so good luck whichever way you decide.

I do, sort of, understand France's university system and the distinction between local university, which isn't highly regarded because it isn't selective, and the grand ecoles, which are. I think you said earlier you weren't sure where your DSs would find their level. I don't have a useful reply for you honestly. Europe is good, but its youth unemployment figures suck across the board. There are more opportunities here for young people, but the cost of living, especially accommodation, makes it very very hard.

Which area are you thinking about? I would research the high schools very carefully. Our local high school is said to be in the top 15 every year but it seems to have a lot of problems of pupils engaging in anti social behaviour in the town and beating other pupils up etc.

It is absolutely not difficult to make friends in Scotland. I don't know what that PP was thinking making such a generalisation 🙄

As for the rest of it, it does sound as though there is possibly more to keep you in France.

Would your sons be classed as Scottish entrants to uni if you return, or as international entrants due to you being away for so long?
Isn't uni free for Scottish nationals going to Scottish unis?
Depends what your sons are like? Academic? Or vocational? Would they want to pursue something prestigious like medicine? Or vocational like plumbing?
Am I wrong in thinking that UK has restricted numbers for intakes for dentistry, medicine etc?From logic this would mean Scottish places for such courses would be extremely competitive (restricted places plus free funding for Scot's). At least France may not have this restrictive numbers system, so there's more places, and the French university tuition fee might hinder your sons competition (other entrants to the courses).
Thus your sons might stand more of a chance, if they're bright and hard working etc, and able to pass the tests every year to make it to the end of the course?
As for visiting family....Maybe once a year in Scotland, exploring options, like looking at small towns/villages near Edinburgh to air bnb in, instead of directly in Edinburgh, might be cheaper? Then the second holiday a year, somewhere that's not Scotland?
The rest of the year, use technology, FaceTime, email. I know it's not the same. Only you know which one is the best country for you and your family, what matters to you most.
Objectively it's France.
But it's true heart wants what it wants; just remember though, feelings can distort things, facts don't.

MY niece and nephew, educated all over the world in international schools, were essentially American by education. One did a UK degree at a very good school, with an IB application, the other banged out of education and went out as a roadie. The roadie is now the GM for a global company. Don't be too quick to judge.

As I read the Scottish statistics @magicofthefae (from England), the figures look fairly dismal. The free funded places aim to help the most able from the most disadvantaged backgrounds, which is admirable, but the crunch hits the middle ranking because they or their parents end up paying. There are very few extremely clever people from disadvantaged backgrounds, because intelligence is one of the most heritable traits. You cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear, as the proverb states.