Contemplating a move (back) to Scotland after 20 years

[Chocchops72]

DH and I left Scotland 20 years ago. In those years we've lived down under for a while and currently live in France, having acquired 2 DSs along the way, who are currently 15 and 12. We've always kept an open mind about coming 'back' to Scotland, and recent events (Covid, Brexit, ageing parents, feeling less integrated in France) are leading us to contemplate a move.

Not going to bore you with all the details but I'd say our main motivations to move back are:
Wanting to be physically closer to ageing parents to spend time and to help out.
Wanting to spend more time with our siblings and our DSs only cousin (we are a small family)
Wanting our DSs to spend more time with their families: it's quite a rootless feeling not having any family around (we used to visit / holiday together a lot but old age / covid put the kibosh on that).
Concerns about whether our boys / we are a good fit for the complex, elitist, world of French secondary and higher education. I know what I'm doing in Scotland, it's a horrible feeling not being able to advise my kids when they are looking for help.
Wanting them to have the option of going to Uni in Scotland, and not being treated / charged as International students
Our own retirement. I'm fine here, I've made lots of friends through the baby years. But DH has never settled socially - French people tend to spend a lot of time with family, there isn't the same 'pint after work on a Friday' culture - and he's worried that we'd end up isolated and lonely - especially if our children decide not to stay in France long-term and it's just us.

My / our main concerns are...
Boys fitting in both socially and into the education system. I've no idea what exams etc they would face. This summer they will be 15 and 12. Both are fluent English speakers and readers, but the writing / expression is well behind. Both are fairly academic.
Jobs: DH is a teacher. He'd have to find a job, and make the move from the French private to the Scottish state system. He was teaching in Scotland before we left 20 years ago, but I honestly don't know if he has the energy to make that move. For me... God knows. I have a PhD (earned in Scotland) but never 'did' anything academic with it. I worked in my field on and off, but we moved around, then I took 10 years off as a SAHM. I've been working in an international school for 5 years now - admin, planning, communications etc. It's pretty piecemeal and my CV is pretty incoherent tbh. And I'm 50 now.
Healthcare: it's excellent here in France. The headlines about the NHS worry me, but maybe that's England rather than Scotland? I do know that my dad has been waiting over 2 years for a knee replacement, which would be unheard of here. My mum, who had breast cancer previously, has been told that as she's over 75 she is no longer priority for mammograms: again, that wouldn't happen here.

What do you think? Would you make the move? What's it like in Scotland just now? For education / healthcare/ standard of living / politically?

There are no fees in Scotland.

The free funded places aim to help the most able from the most disadvantaged backgrounds, which is admirable, but the crunch hits the middle ranking because they or their parents end up paying.

This is nonsenses. If you are resident in Scotland and get the grades to get in to university the Scottish Gov pays the fees, regardless of economic background. The means testing comes in for the loan for living expenses.
There is a restriction on number of places on courses for Scottish home students as the universities need higher paying RUK or overseas fees. But this is nothing to do with parental income

But there is selection -- by other criteria. And getting into the best Scottish universities, St Andrews, Edinburgh, Glasgow for the top three is highly competitive because the universities need the fees from UK and international students to make their books work financially. It's more profitable for the university to accept a Chinese student paying £27k pa than an English student paying £9.25k, or a Scottish student paying £3k or nothing.

Yes I agree @XingMing but that's based on being Scottish home student or not. Nothing to do with economic background

As I understand it there is no such category as Scottish National or Scottish citizen, not least when it comes to uni fees. Applicants are categorised by different criteria, residence in Scotland being a key one - not nationality. To be eligible for ‘no fees’ an applicant has to have been resident in Scotland prior to applying: nationality, heritage, parents nationality (not that there is a Scottish nationality) doesn’t really count. In addition to that, there is a U.K. wide agreement that the children of U.K. nationals who are resident in the EU and are applying for entry up to and including 2017, will be treated as’ home’ students for fees. This means different things in each of the home nations, as they each arrange this themselves. So long story short, DS1 could in theory apply from France and be treated as a ‘home fees’ student ie £9k a year (or the fact that he lived in Scotland for 3 months as a baby might qualify him as a’ local ‘ student 😂 but I’m not holding out much hope for that.). DS2 is gubbed: he’d be applying after the 2017 deadline and he’s never lived in Scotland : he’d be looking at international fees of £40k a year at Edinburgh (though it depends on the course) despite being ‘Scottish’ 🙄.

the competitiveness of French in courses is not to be underestimated : a law class might start out with 300 students, but the graduating year only be 50 will still be standing. The rest are punted out to find something else to do.

I'll take your word for it. You probably know the system much better.

I'd stay out on the grounds that the NHS is failing badly while the French system works well.

Also your elder boy is too old to move rn.

When I was at uni, a million years ago, the aeronautical engineering course AUTOMATICALLY failed the lowest performing 25% of every year group every single year. Who would knowingly fly in a plane designed by someone not making the grade? I bet they still do it, and as a passenger I am very happy they did.

The French uni system is not as complicated as you may think. You more or less already know who will pass or fail depending on how well they did at lycée/ bac. My siblings and I went through the system and survived just fine :).
Tbh even if you fail a year, it's not as if you will have lost a lot of money! Just move onto something else. It's very common to 'redoubler' so no shame there.

I think 12 and 15 is an awkward age to move to Scotland and may prove difficult for your children. If it doesn't work out, they'll also be moving back to France at an even more awkward age (school wise).

I do understand why you are torn though!

NHS certainly in Scotland isn’t as bad as the media presents it. Only bad stories make the news. I can get an on-the-day appointment from my excellent Edinburgh GP and my sister in law had a hip replacement after 9 months on the waiting list, having taken a cancellation.

If your sons are academic, they’ll benefit from Scotland’s universities. You might have to have residence for 3 years to get free tuition after being abroad so long. All the nieces and nephews in our family got good places and really enjoyed that time with well-paying jobs afterwards.

If you choose one of Scotland’s vibrant cities, or somewhere with access to them, your family will thrive. Scotland is opening up after covid and there’s something for everyone. Over 12 year olds get a free bus pass and can get pretty much wherever they want.

The Scottish Government gets a lot of criticism but is taking practical measures to support carers (£245 bonus twice yearly compared with £10 in England, low-paid families with children are paid an additional £20 weekly for each child, nothing in England) and care-experienced children. Know it doesn’t apply to you but makes for a fairer society.

Edinburgh is regularly voted the best city in the world to live in. Schools are used to pupils coming from abroad so this wouldn’t be a problem. It’s obviously best to start school when pupils return in August and new friendship groups are formed.

Returning to Scotland works best if both your head and heart are telling you the same thing. It’s natural to feel unsure but Scotland has a lot to offer.

Xingming
As I read the Scottish statistics @magicofthefae (from England), the figures look fairly dismal. The free funded places aim to help the most able from the most disadvantaged backgrounds, which is admirable, but the crunch hits the middle ranking because they or their parents end up paying. There are very few extremely clever people from disadvantaged backgrounds, because intelligence is one of the most heritable traits. You cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear, as the proverb states.

Not at all my experience. Children whose parents don’t have higher qualifications are given extra points to get a university place, as is only fair.

However, many, many middle class families appreciate not having to pay university fees. No idea what you mean by “the crunch hits the middle ranking because they or their parents end up paying.” Makes no sense. Yes, higher earners pay more in tax but are more than compensated by the direct benefits and living in a fair, socially democratic society.

Not having to pay fees directly means parents can sometimes fund accommodation and living expenses so graduates aren’t building up huge student loans. One friend of our daughter did maths for two years at Glasgow then changed to architecture for a further 5 years which would have been crippling out with Scotland. Now a successful architect. Others studied medicine or veterinary medicine for 5 years.

I’d also take you up on stating that “There are very few extremely clever people from disadvantaged backgrounds”. Many, many people attend university access courses and go on to complete their degrees. Others, like myself, study through the OU. I then completed an MBA at Edinburgh.

The only criticism I hear of free tuition fees is from non-Scots. Here, families from all classes welcome it for the opportunity their young people can have.

You are misinformed.

Students who qualify as resident in Scotland, who attend Scottish universities have free tuition paid by the Scottish govt; this is not means tested .

The OTHER costs of attending university (accommodation,food, books etc) may qualify for means-tested govt support, which IS targeted at students from lower income homes so wealthier parents are expected to contribute . Otherwise, students obtain a govt loan (repaid later, when employed); apply for bursaries, may work and earn while studying etc.

OP's children have British Citizenship by parentage with the right to reside in Scotland. To qualify for free university tuition they need to have lived in Scotland for 3 years; but if they enter Scottish schools at age 12 and 15 they will have done so.

There are no selective or single-sex state schools in Scotland; all are Comprehensive and coeducational. Unlike England, in Scotland pupils leave primary/enter secondary at age 12 . Public exams are held in years 4, 5, 6. Scotland has some of the best universities in UK, entrance requirements for undergraduates vary according to faculty and are based on the exams at school.

NHS Scotland is a devolved service separate from NHS England. It is suffering from similar problems (lack of staff, pandemic pressure,) but overall MN posters living here (Scotland) seem to share the view it's functioning better than south of the border.

How is it hard to make friends in Scotland. I am Scottish and lived abroad for some years and have made lots of new friends since returning home, much more than I made abroad.
My 80 something mother has just had a Ca diagnosis and has been seen within 7 days GP , two weeks breast specialist and was
started in treatment/ date for surgery within 4 weeks.
Come back Scotland is a great wee country

It would be better if you stopped giving wrong information.

Scottish Healthcare IS NHS. Its NHS Scotland, a devolved service. Plenty of problems but not yet as grim as healthcare in England.

www.businessforscotland.com/scotlands-nhs-outperforms-the-rest-of-the-uk-heres-why/

If their literacy in English isn’t great, would the eldest especially even get the grades required for university if you moved over?

Rubbish 2bazookas! My DC will be 11 and 4months when they leave primary - younger than they would be in England.

Having experienced both, the NHS is significantly worse in Scotland.

Correct, there are no selective schools in Scotland, no specialisms whatsoever - all children are lumped together regardless of interest or ability. In fairness to all, no-ones interests are taken into account.

But that's politics, not the OPs personal situation.

@XingMing just putting it out here - maybe, just maybe - nobody wanted to employ you as a teacher because you feel low-income families are thick as mince, pointless and “sow’s ears”.

Ironic… being as you claim to live in Cornwall which has large pockets of extreme deprivation- although maybe you’re an income who waved cash. 🤔

I would agree about the NHS being worse on Scotland. Prescriptions are free and so perhaps there is more demand on the service.

Depends very much where you are.

For university education you are not necessarily limited to France. Some of the universities in the Netherlands for example teach in English.

If you are paying international fees in Scotland these would probably make more sense financially.

It is a particularly difficult time to move children if they are settled though wanting to be closer to relatives is understandable.

Have to say my recent experience of the NHS - and that of friends and family - has been positive.

Mine was minor and involved a 3 hours wait in Minor Injuries (but given I'd left it 7 weeks before going....) but then had an X-ray, finger put in a splint, seen by the Fracture Clinic within a few days, and had 3+ months of "hand physio" once my finger was out of its splint (I'd left it too late to be worth operating on).

My dad had a pacemaker fitted the same day he saw the cardiologist after sending them some abnormal readings from his Apple phone (they did do their own readings as the phone ones are only indicative - and dh and I then had to go to the hospital to play car jenga with dad's car as he'd driven there and wasn't allowed to drive back).

Three friends with bowel cancer were treated promptly - and we have bowel screening from 50 (as long as you send the tests back ).

Dh is on the waiting list for a hip replacement - but the main reason it hasn't been done yet is that he is still managing to referee rugby games for youngsters

Having said that, my dad went private to get his cataract done (at 85, he said he couldn't afford to wait, whatever his principles as a retired NHS consultant were ). He's also probably going to have to go private to deal with his spinal stenosis which won't be cheap

We also seem to have a good GP practice and access to NHS dentistry.

We're in Glasgow if that makes any difference (we're in the South of Glasgow and Dad in East Dunbartonshire - so both GGHB).

Obviously I can't comment on a direct comparison with French healthcare as I haven't experienced it although I know Fidelma Cook (when she was still alive ) waxed lyrical about the quality of care, even in her rural corner of France, in her Herald columns.

Can't really advise on schooling for your kids. You'd need to come soon though if you want free Uni for your eldest and it might be a difficult transition at a key time. A school like Shawlands Academy which is used to kids arriving from all over the world might help with that (I'll admit: ds went to Shawlands and I'm always singing its praises - ds had just graduated from Aberdeen Uni and got a job in his fairly niche field which he is loving )

Politically, there is a strong anti-SNP sentiment on Mumsnet - but the point is that the SNP and Greens keep on being re-elected, so what does that say about the opposition? (Personally, I don't think it's good for any single party to be in power for too long as they end up becoming complacent - and I say that as an Independence supporter ).

I came on to say exactly the same thing! Sounds like your kids were born in France so must qualify for an EU passport. NL is an obvious choice - very generous financial support for students as well. Or French language courses in Belgium or Switzerland (assuming the latter have equal treatment for EU citizens.) Of course once you get to Master's level, there's a gazillion choices opening up as far as low-fee, high quality English language instruction.

Ok, thanks OP and PP for clarifying the fee funding for Scottish residents.

As someone from England, I'm so jealous of how egalitarian and progressive the Scots are in policies compared to England/Conservatives/Austerity/Trickledown BS. Compared to England, if I had any relatives in Scotland, I would have moved there like yesterday. It certainly has more opportunities for the young and working class, than England does.

OP what is your age and your DH age? Are you almost at retirement? Or still at least decade off?

Choosing a potentially worse job in Scotland, compared to a decent job in France, might not be wise if you've got a decade of work ahead of you. Plus the ages of your kids would make transition difficult, educationally and socially.

Also, what are the ages of your or DH's aging parents? What are there health conditions, status like? Is your sister in law able to keep a close eye on them for practical stuff?

Could you re-consider the option of moving back to Scotland around retirement? When your kids are young adults and finding a decent replacement job isn't a worry? If you have sufficient retirement funds to pay for private healthcare insurance in Scotland if NHS Scotland fails to deliver?

Also you have to consider housing opportunities in both countries. Your sons will need not only good jobs but affordable and accessible housing, an realistic opportunity to buy their own flat etc one day. Scotlands housing prices seem reasonable, and they've abolished the leasehold flat BS, not sure how the affordability of the housing ladder is for young French people?

Sometimes it's heart that wins. Are you missing home, or is this a purely practical debate?
Sounds like there are some things that you miss about Scotland.

My parents moved back to Scotland 22 years ago, in their 50's , and were welcomed with open arms. They made tons of friends and got involved in the community as they have wherever they lived.

Your children may feel excited at new opportunities

@Chocchops72 I am in a similar situation; living overseas and working at an international school and for many years I have ummed and ahhed about going back to live in Scotland. When my oldest was 16 and my youngest was 15 we decided we would do it. Because my oldest was S5 age, we decided they would go first and live with grandparents (they get on very well) and the rest of us would follow 9 months later when my contract ended. We took them in the summer holiday and the plan to stay for 5 weeks got extended to 4 months because of covid restrictions. That was such a gift as by the end of the 4 months I knew categorically it was not for me, and my younger child felt the same. My older decided it was for them and stayed on. The positive I'd like to share in that is although the first term transitioning from iGCSE to Higher was tough, my DC did get to grips with it and went on to get 5 As, despite not having done National 5s. However, it was very difficult to get placed in the subjects they wanted to take - schools have to accept if you are in catchment, but they don't have to offer you the subjects you want. A big factor in all this was that I hadn't realised until I was in Scotland for that long that there are essentially close to zero permanent jobs for teachers, and I do read that the older (and more expensive) you are, the harder it is. There are of course the promoted posts (which I would technically be eligible to apply for) but without current experience in Scottish schools, I just didn't see why I would ever be chosen over someone who has. I also did the 'Return to teaching' course at Edinburgh university which is designed for people who have had long breaks from teaching in Scotland. I thoroughly enjoyed the course, but the reality of the jobs market is what ultimately put me off.