Has the Scottish Govt produced any evidence of the effectiveness of face-coverings?

[Seeingadistance]

I do not believe that face-coverings make the slightest bit of difference to the spread of Covid 19. But, I am legally obliged to wear something - anything - over my mouth and nose wherever the Scottish Government decides I should.

I've had a look at the coverage of last week's announcement that face-coverings are to stay for a while longer, but the only reason I could see being given was that it would be "prudent"!

Can anyone here point me to an evidential basis for the Scottish Government's decision?

Yesterday I had a lovely wander round Asda sans mask - exchanging conspiratorial glances with others who had the audacity to expose their face to the world.

@ChocolateDeficitDisorder

If you think that Ms Sturgeon is really waking up every morning thinking about what's best for the economy, and best for education and best for the country as a whole you are very wrong.

Whatever she's thinking is definitely closer to that that whatever Johnson and his clingons are thinking.

I'll take her thoughts any day of the week.

But would you take her thoughts on mask wearing over Jason Leitch's, her own CMO? Because Johnsons views seem a lot closer to his?

I'd never seen those two interviews from Leitch and Harries before and they must have more access to up to date scientific information than other people and they'e clearly saying masks don't work in non-clinical settings. And they weren't just a snippet of out of context phrases. They were full responses to asked questions.

That's very interesting.

@NowThatsWhatICall22

It’s not a legal requirement. There are actually no legal requirements to wear, nor any implications for not wearing. It really is just Nic’s law now. She wasn’t required to present any evidence as to why a further two weeks is required beyond 21st March, or how it will make any difference, so she just extended it.

Anyone still wearing beyond March 21st when all other restrictions on businesses and services are dropped from guidance, is simply doing so because Nicola asked. It does seem like the judgement from others make people feel guilty more than breaking tricky Nicky’s made up law.

Can you point towards confirmation that it’s now guidance rather than a legal requirement? We’re being told it’s still mandatory but I seem to recall that “guidance” and “legal requirement” have been muddled before.

Most people I know are desperate to get rid of masks, but I have chatted with a few who intend to keep wearing them because they are scared not to.

As pp have already said, I can believe that masks might have some effect if of a certain high standard and worn in a particular way. But the random rags, frequently touched and rarely washed are surely more likely to spread disease. It’s just theatre, and it’s not harmless.

@Seeingadistance. I think you're right that it's a legal requirement and not advisory. This is from the BBC news...

Scotland's rules on face coverings in shops and on public transport will remain in place until April due to a rise in cases of Covid-19.
Under the government's strategic framework for managing the virus, remaining legal restrictions - including mask-wearing and the need for businesses to record customer contact details and follow other guidance - were to be lifted on 21 March.

The rules for businesses will be dropped as planned, but Ms Sturgeon said she needed to "ask everyone to be patient for a little while longer on face coverings".

Yes, I'm scared not to wear a mask.

I'm not scared of getting Covid. Having had it last week, I think i'm fairly safe for a while.

I am scared of some self-appointed covid monitor haranguing me in Tesco over the milk. I dont do confrontation.

I find it difficult to believe anything Jason Leitch says either. He is most definitely not impartial/independent and is definitely not an expert on epidemiology either. He is paid by the Scottish government and he who pays the piper calls the tune. Bit like "independent" expert Devi, who had to hastily backtrack after tweeting that people who didn't support independence were anti-Scottish.

Anyway, @Seeingadistance, the answer to your question is no: they have not provided any evidence that the masks are effective or why they need to be retained.

But, Foxy, Jason Leitch is contradicting the Scottish govt. They are saying wear a mask to control infection. And he is saying wearing a mask is pointless.

@GoldenOmber

There is an abundance of evidence that masks work. Just as there is evidence that vaccines work, and anti-viral drugs work.

Right. But. ‘masks work’ can mean different things. “Do fit-tested FFP3 masks work to reduce viral exposure during one prior of contact?” is not the same thing as “do cloth masks worn in some situations reduce the overall number of cases in a population over several months?”

With vaccines and anti-viral drugs, there needs to be some evidence that it works before large clinical trials. Those trials are still needed, though, because “does it work to produce an immune response safely in one patient?” or “does it work to kill the virus in a Petri dish?” are not the same thing as “does it work in real populations in real conditions to reduce illness over a period of time?”

There are lots and lots of potential vaccines and treatments that work at the first stage of these smaller studies, but don’t work in big trials. So we decide not to use them. What we don’t do is say “yes but they worked in the Petri dish, so that means they DO work, and I will keep insisting we must use them at a population level even though we did wider trials in human patients where they failed.” That is not ‘following the science’, that is following the crazy Ivermectin fans.

Do fit-tested FFP3s work to reduce viral exposure during a limited contact? Yes they absolutely do. We test them for this, we know they work.

Do cloth masks worn in some situations reduce overall cases at population level? No, they clearly don’t. Otherwise we would have seen at least some evidence of it in case levels by now, when comparing countries that used them against countries that didn’t.

I do not know why so many people have become convinced that it is Following The Science to look at all these examples all over the world of masks not impacting population-level spread and maintain that the data is simply less important than your pre-existing beliefs, but that doesn’t seem very scientific. How far do you think the vaccine trials would have got if the results showed bugger all difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, and some Pfizer exec said “ah yes BUT they do work nevertheless, look what happened in this Petri dish!”

This is probably the best explanation of the state of mask wearing ‘science’ that I’ve seen @GoldenOmber, so thanks for that!

Is he? Like I said I don’t pay much attention! He’s been thankfully absent from the tv screens recently.

[quote WouldBeGood]@moonbedazzled no, there’s no statistically significant difference in countries with or without masks or other restrictions in the latest studies like the research i linked to above.[/quote]
I've read those pictures you put up. It's so interesting the new information that's coming through. It definitely justifies not having an immediate enquiry, which would have just been a kicking the govt exercise, and waiting til we have up to date facts to enable us to examine what really happened. Thank you for taking the time to post it all.

I’ll continue to wear a mask until the law changes but I can’t see that pulling a rarely washed bit of cloth from a pocket and shoving it on and off makes a difference. Maybe if people were adopting an optimal approach to their use but in reality that’s not what most are doing.

@Mindtheears

I’ll continue to wear a mask until the law changes but I can’t see that pulling a rarely washed bit of cloth from a pocket and shoving it on and off makes a difference. Maybe if people were adopting an optimal approach to their use but in reality that’s not what most are doing.

I will continue too but the evidence on real life use just doesn't seem to stack up.
In Scotland where we wear cloth masks and European countries like Italy where they have to wear FFP2 masks we're faring no better at moment than counties with no masks🤷🏼‍♀️

I’d just been reading about Hong Kong and it’s now terrible death rates. Always fully masked, but low rates of vaccination amongst the elderly. We are really very lucky with the high rates of vaccination in the UK as this seems to be the only strategy that helps.

Thats interesting @WouldBeGood. I'd have thought masks would have made more of a difference over there but maybe not. I'm now realising they don't help me much either and I'm very half hearted about them now. I still believe ventilation is the key here, that and the vaccines. I'm doing fine, thanks for asking, hope you and the kids are the same.

I'm totally with you there @ssd on ventilation and vaccines.
Glad your doing ok

Evidence-hope this is helpful in informing your decision-making.

Babdoc is not the first doctor I’ve heard in Scotland snort with laughter at masks - and as for comparing shite masks to operating room gear - I’m gonna wager babdoc didn’t hang her scrubs and masks off her gearstick for weeks on end!

I’m in one of the island communities currently being hit hard with what I presume is Omicron. There is much observation here of rules and doing things to protect others (tighter-knit communities????) - I could stroll around Tesco at the forge without a mask and nobody would care - do it in an island and ALL your community will know… and remember for the next 3 decades!

Fwiw I reckon the anti-virals I was given did more for me than the gearstick blue mask.

Each to their own. Wearing a mask doesn't bother me in the slightest and I'll continue wearing one when I feel appropriate in crowded places. I was convinced by the Cambridge University study which showed the efficacy of higher grade masks in protecting the wearer. I only wear disposable FFP2 masks and upgrade to FFP3 for airport and flying. I agree that the cloth and basic surgical masks do nothing for the wearer and very little for anyone else.

@Equalbutdifferent

Evidence-hope this is helpful in informing your decision-making.

I couldn't open the link @Equalbutdifferent but I see the title mentions PPE in healthcare settings. That's not what people are talking about on here. They're mainly talking about evidence for cloth masks worn in supermarkets by general public not trained how to use them properly!

My DH went for a blood test recently and the nurse made him remove his cloth masks and gave him a surgical mask which she then made sure covered both his mouth and nose before he was allowed into the room. That's a different situation

Exactly - I don't think anyone has an issue with being asked to wear a mask to see granny in a care home, or a surgeon wearing a mask when operating.

Evidence for the effectiveness of wearing masks in supermarkets, hospitality and museums etc? I saw Amy McDonald tweeting yesterday, a selfie of her in front of 14,000 fans at the Hydro. No masks. No checks on who has covid and who has been vaccinated as that requirement ended on 28th Feb.

twitter.com/Amy__Macdonald/status/1504955386641670144

So that was the Hydro on Friday night.

This morning I need a mask to shop in my local supermarket.

This is the problem. The contradictions, the lack of common sense. And the lack of willingness to discuss the rationale from the Scottish Government. It's all "shut up and do as you're telt by St Nicola".

@EvelynBeatrice

Each to their own. Wearing a mask doesn't bother me in the slightest and I'll continue wearing one when I feel appropriate in crowded places. I was convinced by the Cambridge University study which showed the efficacy of higher grade masks in protecting the wearer. I only wear disposable FFP2 masks and upgrade to FFP3 for airport and flying. I agree that the cloth and basic surgical masks do nothing for the wearer and very little for anyone else.

I thought a plane was safer rhan most places due to the air filters on it?

@ssd yes plane filters are good but it's a high risk environment just because you're contained in a box with lots of others. Also I don't think the filters are on necessarily while plane is on ground. Other advice I've had is to turn air vents on full, wear your specs while on ground (to help prevent virus going in eyes) , choose window seat middle plane and avoid going to loo etc to minimise number of people you're in contact with. I also use first defence or salt nose spray before takeoff and after landing - in theory creates hostile environment for virus in nose/ throat. I sound quite mad I realise - but have flown with ECV (albeit fully jabbed) relative so I've done all I can to minimise risk - and so far, so good!

Great advice @EvelynBeatrice

@FoxyFoxyLoxy

I'm sure that the Scottish govt is doing what they think best.

That's where you are wrong @moonbedazzled. The Scottish government is doing what they think best to set them apart from Boris. Because that's the end game isn't it? Look at us, we're better, more caring, so different, not like those nasty people in Englandshire. So different in fact, that we need to be independent.

If you think that Ms Sturgeon is really waking up every morning thinking about what's best for the economy, and best for education and best for the country as a whole you are very wrong.

Couldn’t agree more with this. I have visions of Nippy having an absolute tantrum at WM removing travel controls which she can’t touch, and this is where the extension to mask wearing has come from. It’s all about control. I’m totally over it, I’ve had covid twice and lost my dad to it, but life is for living and these controls are doing more harm than good