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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

Has the Scottish Govt produced any evidence of the effectiveness of face-coverings?

85 replies

Seeingadistance · 19/03/2022 19:46

I do not believe that face-coverings make the slightest bit of difference to the spread of Covid 19. But, I am legally obliged to wear something - anything - over my mouth and nose wherever the Scottish Government decides I should.

I've had a look at the coverage of last week's announcement that face-coverings are to stay for a while longer, but the only reason I could see being given was that it would be "prudent"!

Can anyone here point me to an evidential basis for the Scottish Government's decision?

Yesterday I had a lovely wander round Asda sans mask - exchanging conspiratorial glances with others who had the audacity to expose their face to the world.

OP posts:
WouldBeGood · 20/03/2022 14:36

@PAFMO that’s really very rude. Fair enough, disagree, but I’m not a liar. I attach screenshots as don’t want to link in case it goes to my account.

WouldBeGood · 20/03/2022 14:38

Here

Has the Scottish Govt produced any evidence of the effectiveness of face-coverings?
Has the Scottish Govt produced any evidence of the effectiveness of face-coverings?
Has the Scottish Govt produced any evidence of the effectiveness of face-coverings?
Malteser71 · 20/03/2022 15:01

It’s astonishing that wee nippy is coercing people into sticking masks across their faces to score points.

Even more astonishing that folks go along with it

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 20/03/2022 15:57

If you're going to impose restrictions on people I don't think it's unreasonable to provide strong evidence that 1) that restriction does what it's supposed to (stop transmission) and 2) that this effect outweighs any costs. There was an Prof. in Public Health on BBC Scotland a few mornings ago explaining that 1) isn't met with face masks as we use them (much as Chris Smith and other experts are saying), especially not with omicron, and that 2) isn't even being properly considered in the models/decisions. So the costs as she was outlining them are things like communication difficulties, children's development, impaired social interactions with mental health consequences etc, none of which are being properly studied- there is just the widespread assumption that masks are 'harmless'. Interestingly she was also pointing out (as others have on here before) that keeping people in a state of 'alertness' for long periods was in itself detrimental to health, and actually depresses the immune system, so the 'signal' (if that is indeed the aim) isn't good from a public health POV either now we're out of the dangerous phase of the pandemic.

My guess is that Sturgeon's U-turn was as a sop to the terrified who believe that masks protect them, even though we have higher case rates than parts of the UK who don't have mask mandates and common sense, and indeed peer-reviewed research, would suggest they are at best useless (and at worst harmful). She'll have done a political calculation that overall there are more people scared of the high case numbers and want a comfort blanket than there are people who are sick of masks/restrictions in general and want it all gone. I honestly don't know if that's actually the case - most people I know really wanted rid of them so perhaps the scared are just more vocal. Either way the scared seem to want restrictions until COVID disappears, which will be never, so Nicola's going to be disappointing them soon anyway as surely this can't go on beyond the next few weeks.

FoxyFoxyLoxy · 20/03/2022 16:14

@Malteser71

It’s astonishing that wee nippy is coercing people into sticking masks across their faces to score points.

Even more astonishing that folks go along with it

It's the social pressure though. It's still law to wear masks in Scotland. In this part of the country, most people will do what the law tells them. They wouldn't dream of not wearing a mask any more than they'd dream of littering of spraying graffiti or drink driving. So compliance is very high. I can count on one hand the people I've seen in the local supermarket without a mask or a sunflower lanyard.

So I can't really think fuck it and leave the mask in the car as I know that everyone I come across would be judging me six ways sideways. And these people are my neighbours, friends, colleagues. The very second the law is lifted though is a different matter.

ssd · 20/03/2022 16:35

This thread just keeps on giving.

Wee nippy

And the terrified who still want to wear masks

Hi @WouldBeGood. No wonder i stayed away ,its not improved here has it? The same old shite being regurgitated.

IBelieveInAThingCalledScience · 20/03/2022 16:42

It makes zero difference

Next time you have surgery tell them all to ungown and take their makes off too.

ScotsLass1 · 20/03/2022 16:44

[quote orzoisorange]**@PAFMO, what does it matter who posted this link to Chief Medical Officer for Scotland Jason Leitch telling us face masks don't work?

Here is the exact same video posted by the Scotland Tonight Twitter page, the programme it first appeared on.

Do you have an issue with it this time?
twitter.com/ScotlandTonight/status/1245793603269668866

And here is precisely the same video of Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jenny Harries that I linked to, posted by Good Morning Britain rather than Freedom Podcast.
twitter.com/GMB/status/1253243963701694465[/quote]
This video is from the start of the pandemic - April 2020!!

WouldBeGood · 20/03/2022 16:46

The paper I posted is brand new

WouldBeGood · 20/03/2022 16:46

@ssd sorry you feel like that, but hope you’re doing ok in real life

helpfulperson · 20/03/2022 16:51

Masks are still in wide spread use around Europe. I hadn't realised this until footage of Ukrainian children being welcomed into primary schools in Germany and Italy. All the adults and children are wearing masks. Do you really believe we know better than the rest of Europe?

moonbedazzled · 20/03/2022 16:59

I'm sure that the Scottish govt is doing what they think best. I'm also sure there are scientific papers about masks and transmission in clinical settings and I don't doubt their findings.
But what I don't understand is that Scotland have kept the mask rules in place a lot longer than England and yet their numbers are higher. So are masks actually effective when used by the public in the community? I'm guilty of taking mine on and off; and sticking it in my bag or pocket; and handling it and touching my face constantly whilst wearing it. I don't believe I'm alone in that behaviour so what proof is there of how much protection masks give in non-clinical settings? I'm not challenging that evidence, I'm just genuinely curious about the data coming out of Scotland and England. Its only fair to pint out that Wales is still wearing masks and their figures are lower than Englands. So what are they doing different from Scotland? Its confusing.

FoxyFoxyLoxy · 20/03/2022 17:00

@IBelieveInAThingCalledScience

It makes zero difference

Next time you have surgery tell them all to ungown and take their makes off too.

Fuck me, has Covid transported me back in a time machine to March 2020, where people are unable to see the difference between doing your shopping in Asda and a surgeon cutting you open and removing your appendix?
FoxyFoxyLoxy · 20/03/2022 17:03

I'm sure that the Scottish govt is doing what they think best.

That's where you are wrong @moonbedazzled. The Scottish government is doing what they think best to set them apart from Boris. Because that's the end game isn't it? Look at us, we're better, more caring, so different, not like those nasty people in Englandshire. So different in fact, that we need to be independent.

If you think that Ms Sturgeon is really waking up every morning thinking about what's best for the economy, and best for education and best for the country as a whole you are very wrong.

GoldenOmber · 20/03/2022 17:08

There is an abundance of evidence that masks work. Just as there is evidence that vaccines work, and anti-viral drugs work.

Right. But. ‘masks work’ can mean different things. “Do fit-tested FFP3 masks work to reduce viral exposure during one prior of contact?” is not the same thing as “do cloth masks worn in some situations reduce the overall number of cases in a population over several months?”

With vaccines and anti-viral drugs, there needs to be some evidence that it works before large clinical trials. Those trials are still needed, though, because “does it work to produce an immune response safely in one patient?” or “does it work to kill the virus in a Petri dish?” are not the same thing as “does it work in real populations in real conditions to reduce illness over a period of time?”

There are lots and lots of potential vaccines and treatments that work at the first stage of these smaller studies, but don’t work in big trials. So we decide not to use them. What we don’t do is say “yes but they worked in the Petri dish, so that means they DO work, and I will keep insisting we must use them at a population level even though we did wider trials in human patients where they failed.” That is not ‘following the science’, that is following the crazy Ivermectin fans.

Do fit-tested FFP3s work to reduce viral exposure during a limited contact? Yes they absolutely do. We test them for this, we know they work.

Do cloth masks worn in some situations reduce overall cases at population level? No, they clearly don’t. Otherwise we would have seen at least some evidence of it in case levels by now, when comparing countries that used them against countries that didn’t.

I do not know why so many people have become convinced that it is Following The Science to look at all these examples all over the world of masks not impacting population-level spread and maintain that the data is simply less important than your pre-existing beliefs, but that doesn’t seem very scientific. How far do you think the vaccine trials would have got if the results showed bugger all difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, and some Pfizer exec said “ah yes BUT they do work nevertheless, look what happened in this Petri dish!”

NowThatsWhatICall22 · 20/03/2022 17:08

It’s not a legal requirement. There are actually no legal requirements to wear, nor any implications for not wearing. It really is just Nic’s law now. She wasn’t required to present any evidence as to why a further two weeks is required beyond 21st March, or how it will make any difference, so she just extended it.

Anyone still wearing beyond March 21st when all other restrictions on businesses and services are dropped from guidance, is simply doing so because Nicola asked. It does seem like the judgement from others make people feel guilty more than breaking tricky Nicky’s made up law.

moonbedazzled · 20/03/2022 17:09

@IBelieveInAThingCalledScience

It makes zero difference

Next time you have surgery tell them all to ungown and take their makes off too.

But isn't there a difference between masks used in clinical settings, right level, right usage, regularly changed, not touching face, to the use of masks in non-clinical settings, any covering, taken on and off, carried in your hand, touching your face etc? Have they done studies on that? I'm not criticising govts or individuals, I'm just interested in real life data. Do countries wearing masks have much lower infection and death rates than say Denmark where all rules on masks have gone (apart from health care settings)? I don't know, I'm just asking.
ChocolateDeficitDisorder · 20/03/2022 17:10

If you think that Ms Sturgeon is really waking up every morning thinking about what's best for the economy, and best for education and best for the country as a whole you are very wrong.

Whatever she's thinking is definitely closer to that that whatever Johnson and his clingons are thinking.

I'll take her thoughts any day of the week.

GoldenOmber · 20/03/2022 17:11

@helpfulperson

Masks are still in wide spread use around Europe. I hadn't realised this until footage of Ukrainian children being welcomed into primary schools in Germany and Italy. All the adults and children are wearing masks. Do you really believe we know better than the rest of Europe?
And what are cases doing in Germany and Italy right now? Staying down thanks to mask-wearing, yes?

Oh, wait. No, no they’re not. Hmm.

FoxyFoxyLoxy · 20/03/2022 17:12

@helpfulperson

Masks are still in wide spread use around Europe. I hadn't realised this until footage of Ukrainian children being welcomed into primary schools in Germany and Italy. All the adults and children are wearing masks. Do you really believe we know better than the rest of Europe?
I have to take issue with this too. I have been checking mask rules around Europe as we are planning a trip shortly.

Netherlands - masks compulsory on public transport and airports only from 25th Feb.

France - masks on public transport only from 28th Feb.

Italy - masks still compulsory indoors

Germany - masks on public transport, hospitals and care homes only as of last Friday.

Denmark, Switzerland - masks only in healthcare and elderly care settings.

So the footage of people in Germany wearing masks from last week will not be replicated tomorrow as the requirement has stopped. Italy and Spain (where rules are made region by region) are very much outliers on this. Spain remember, was the country which thought it was fine to ban children from leaving their houses for 7 weeks.

WouldBeGood · 20/03/2022 17:14

@moonbedazzled no, there’s no statistically significant difference in countries with or without masks or other restrictions in the latest studies like the research i linked to above.

beattieedny · 20/03/2022 17:14

I've stopped wearing one, except if asked, as I have seen no evidence a shit piece of cloth over ones mouth does anything at all to reduce the spread amongst the population, let alone for personal 'safety'. That said, I don't judge people who's do use them at all. People have been terrified and it will take a while to calm down. Sturgeon's only motive is to be different from ENFERLAND. She's a nationalist arsehole. I hate her more than I hate Boris Johnson.

moonbedazzled · 20/03/2022 17:19

@FoxyFoxyLoxy

I'm sure that the Scottish govt is doing what they think best.

That's where you are wrong @moonbedazzled. The Scottish government is doing what they think best to set them apart from Boris. Because that's the end game isn't it? Look at us, we're better, more caring, so different, not like those nasty people in Englandshire. So different in fact, that we need to be independent.

If you think that Ms Sturgeon is really waking up every morning thinking about what's best for the economy, and best for education and best for the country as a whole you are very wrong.

😂😂😂 I hear you. I have my own feelings about Sturgeon, both good and bad. But the thing is I was trying to stay away from a political argument because I don't really care whether or what or why she's asking or telling etc, I'm really just interested in how masks are actually working in the community. And I think the people who think she's great and profess to know a lot about the science behind the transmission are more likely to give me honest answers if they don't feel she's under attack. I think it's just a great opportunity to see three countries so close side by side, two wearing masks and the third not, and see that one masked country has a higher infection rate. And yet Wakes has a lower infection rate. It really looks like masks don't make the situation better or worse. But I don't know.
Babdoc · 20/03/2022 17:27

Masks only provide about 50% reduction in infection transmission, even when used correctly. The majority of people I see “wearing” them might as well not bother.
95% of Covid infection is via the nose - but people wear their masks with their nose sticking out, breathing unmasked air. Many wear them as decorative chin straps, with both nose and mouth exposed.
Several wear the same mask for hours, putting it off and on between shops, sticking it in a pocket, handling the infected surface, etc. I’ve seen people pull it down to speak to shop assistants, then pull it up again!
Scotland, with all our masks and restrictions, currently has a higher infection rate than England.
Rather damning evidence that the only things influencing case numbers are the vaccine roll out, and the degree of isolation of communities. Rural areas like Orkney and the Western Isles are peaking now, as are areas such as Norfolk in England. Cities like London were hit early and are now declining.
It makes sense to ditch masks and restrictions while we all still have good immunity from our boosters, so any infection we get will be mild and provide further herd immunity. The longer we wait, the worse any infection will be.

NowThatsWhatICall22 · 20/03/2022 17:36

Let’s also reflect on the folk still wearing masks whilst driving alone in a car. Plenty around here I’ve seen doing that. Quite frankly, that’s a serious mental health issue and I’d like to hear more messaging in the media to help those people reverse their behaviour. They really are still terrified. I consider myself very lucky to understand the difference between when I’m being used as a political posturing pawn and when a clinical professional must wear a mask to protect me during a medical procedure.

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