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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

School pupil 'health survey'

164 replies

horseymum · 27/11/2021 21:49

Does anyone have a link to the actual survey questions, I've just seen a couple of disturbing screen shots on Twitter and a daily mail article? There also appears to be a Perth council letter saying the data is linked to the pupil through their candidate number so can easily be traced back to them, however secure they say it is.

OP posts:
NasaTheFunny · 06/12/2021 21:48

@alicesfavouritepen

The questions aren't only to do with sex. There are many questions across health and well-being from what I understand. The more information the better surely. Maybe they find a correlation between low self esteem and numerous sexual partners or whatever. I'm not an educational psychologist or a public health employee but what's the point of doing a mental health and well-being survey if you aren't going to consider all the things that could impact mental health and well-being.

Of course disagreeing with a survey doesn't automatically make you a pearl clutcher but some of the chat on here is a bit ridiculous.

Alice you seem a little bit confused.

This is a survey not an information leaflet. You refer to the survey as a source of information, same as another pp saying the survey is an opportunity to educate kids. That's barking up the wrong tree. Sex ed in schools takes place in PSHE, not via an indiscrete and insensitive questionnaire. A survey that does not protect the anonymity of a school child asking about extreme sexual practices is manipulative and exploitative.

What's worse is the assumption that kids need 'sexual health' interventions. We already know a lot and could find out more helpful information safely and discretely with ethical research studies not ethically highly problematic questionnaires.

It's an incredibly weird, Neo-Victorian approach, which treats young people as 'the other' that needs to be explored and controlled to affect behaviour change.

School settings are entirely inappropriate to be asking such personal and loaded questions. There is peer pressure, not wanting to stand out if you don't do the questionnaire and how freaking uncomfortable for these students to be forced to reflecting on their sexual practices with their class mates and form teacher. The will be girls and boys who have had very negative experiences and for whom this will be very triggering. It's intrusive, an abuse of power.

It's quite straightforward to provide safe and respectful sex education and information. This is survey is not it.

heelforheelandtoefortoe · 06/12/2021 21:53

still no information on which councils have rejected it - everything online seems to be behind a paywall - anyone have the details for free?

My council is very SNP so I doubt mine is one of them

Is the survey to be done every year or every few years?

heelforheelandtoefortoe · 06/12/2021 21:54

also, some kids might be really niave and not know what some terms mean. Imagine them asking the teacher....

alicesfavouritepen · 06/12/2021 22:01

Alice you seem a little bit confused.

Debatable. I think you are the one who is confused.

This is a survey not an information leaflet. You refer to the survey as a source of information, same as another pp saying the survey is an opportunity to educate kids. That's barking up the wrong tree. Sex ed in schools takes place in PSHE, not via an indiscrete and insensitive questionnaire. A survey that does not protect the anonymity of a school child asking about extreme sexual practices is manipulative and exploitative.

The point of a survey is to gather information not to disseminate it. I believe the previous PP was suggesting that the information gathered could be used to target interventions. Nobody, apart from you, is suggesting that the survey is a form of sex Ed. Quite the opposite actually. It's an information gathering exercise.

What's worse is the assumption that kids need 'sexual health' interventions. We already know a lot and could find out more helpful information safely and discretely with ethical research studies not ethically highly problematic questionnaires.

It's actually a mental health and well-being questionnaire. Sexual identity is an important part of this. Even with that aside I think it's fair to say that the rate of STDs and sexual incidences, quite often involving things like mobile phones and kids taking images of themselves, being recorded in schools suggest that interventions are required.

It's an incredibly weird, Neo-Victorian approach, which treats young people as 'the other' that needs to be explored and controlled to affect behaviour change.

Right.

School settings are entirely inappropriate to be asking such personal and loaded questions. There is peer pressure, not wanting to stand out if you don't do the questionnaire and how freaking uncomfortable for these students to be forced to reflecting on their sexual practices with their class mates and form teacher. The will be girls and boys who have had very negative experiences and for whom this will be very triggering. It's intrusive, an abuse of power.

It's a kid sitting typing into a computer. It's not a class discussion. There's no reflection with their teacher. It's a questionnaire that they can answer 'I'd prefer not to say' for every question.

it's quite straightforward to provide safe and respectful sex education and information. This is survey is not it.

Absolutely. Nobody is suggesting it is apart from you. It's an information gathering exercise.

Hope all this helps clear some stuff up for you!

Gottasinggottadance · 06/12/2021 22:09

heel there's a link at the end of this thread to an article in The Times with a share token - it gives some idea of which councils are rejecting this survey: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4418831-Scottish-sex-census-for-children-will-not-be-anonymous

NasaTheFunny · 06/12/2021 22:13

Pressurising? Making something optional surely helps combat that? Nobody is sitting over them forcing them to complete it. The whole thing is optional. Each question is optional. How can that be pressurising?

Yeah, I imagine that's how the researchers who designed this study would try and justify their incompetent and unethical research. Any researcher worth their salt is familiar with how easily informed consent is undermined.

Conducting such personal surveys in a school setting risks students feeling unduly pressured. We all know that schools are places where you do as you're told not as you please.

Each question should be assessed in terms of how useful knowing the answers will be for any interventions. Does this question really need to be asked and what effective and benevolent action can be taken if we know this data? If the question does not yield useful actionable data it's unethical to ask.

Does this survey make it absolutely clear that it's voluntary and that pupils can opt out at any point even after having submitted their answers? Is it completely clear which questions are optional and which are not or is this ambiguous? If ambiguous, it's unethical.

Is anonymity 100% granted? If it asks for respondents full postcode and school name etc it is no longer anonymous and therefore not ethical.

Now, back to the drawing board with this dubious 'research'.

Gottasinggottadance · 06/12/2021 22:13

Alice, I know it's not a class discussion, but there will still be potentially pressure to complete it and attendant concerns about the privacy of doing so in a classroom - what's to stop a child peering at someone else's answers and sharing them?

NasaTheFunny · 06/12/2021 22:29

Children have to go to school, there is no choice in the matter. Prompting them to share extensive, detailed personal information about their sex and emotional life in this setting is an abuse of power.

alicesfavouritepen · 06/12/2021 22:33

What is it you think they want to do with this info then?

What are they abusing their power for?

MonsieurFoxy · 06/12/2021 23:44

My 15 year old child knows what anal sex is. They have told me they are uncomfortable filling in a survey in a school setting asking how many times they’ve had it. That’s reason enough for them not to do it, irrespective of whatever type of jewellery I may or may not have tightly clasped in my hand. There are other ways to collect this type of information.

MonsieurFoxy · 06/12/2021 23:46

Why are we only asking school children about this? Why is it of use to know for that age group and not the population as a whole?

334bu · 06/12/2021 23:53

The fact that so many councils are withdrawing this survey, should surely indicate that there is something wrong with this survey.
Asking 14 year olds questions which imply that risky sexual activity is normal is dubious at the very least.

KimikosNightmare · 07/12/2021 00:16

@WouldBeGood

I have so many ideas how they could start to make things better!
Well like doing something about Scottish schools apparently inexorable slide down world league tables.
KimikosNightmare · 07/12/2021 00:20

@Gottasinggottadance

Alice, I know it's not a class discussion, but there will still be potentially pressure to complete it and attendant concerns about the privacy of doing so in a classroom - what's to stop a child peering at someone else's answers and sharing them?
Exactly. If this has to have any hope of privacy it would have to be completely in examination scenario with widely spaced desks.

Children are being asked to incriminate themselves. Whilst the chances of two 15 year olds engaging in consensual sexual activity being prosecuted are slim, they are still engaged in illegal activities. The right not to incriminate oneself is a fundamental legal right.

KimikosNightmare · 07/12/2021 00:24

@alicesfavouritepen

Presumably some young gay men might be having anal sex? I can see why it would be included for those reasons.

I think it's hugely entertaining that so many pearl clutchers can't possibly conceive that it might be helpful to know a bit more about the sexual habits of the young but can and do believe that the information is being gathered by a bunch of nosey perverts with a sexual agenda. 🤷🏻‍♀️

"Pearl clutchers" - such a lazy, unimaginative , hackneyed put down.
CharlieParley · 07/12/2021 00:48

When I phoned my DC's school to opt out, I was told that the school had already refused to do the survey. The reasons I was given were those raised by parents and others on this thread and in the media. Main concerns were around privacy, informed consent, data protection, collection process and purpose and inappropriate questions about sexual behaviour.

As for those who ask how else we can plan to protect children, there is of course already an excellent regular survey, administered since 1982, called the Scottish Schools Adolescent Lifestyle and Substance Use Survey (SALSUS). That asks questions about drugs, alcohol etc, but crucially is fully anonymised at the point of data collection. This is also opt-out, but as the data is collected under exam conditions with extra measures taken to ensure that not even the teacher supervising knows which pupil is filling out which survey, this is acceptable. Teachers are also not allowed to explain questions to the pupils.

Back to this newly redesigned Health and Wellbeing Census - I think if even school staff who strongly believe in evidence-based planning of interventions in order to benefit their pupils and who therefore regularly design and administer their own school surveys reject this survey, it's worth considering that there may be something wrong with this particular one.

heelforheelandtoefortoe · 07/12/2021 07:00

looks like my council haven't opted out yet Angry

is it every year or every few years?

I'm sure lots of kids will fake their answers for a laugh, so how on earth will they know how accurate the results are?

Whattochoosenow · 07/12/2021 07:23

My DS had to do one of these a few years ago just before the named person thing became a hot topic. He and his mates did not take it seriously and answered as if they were sex addicted drug taking alcoholics. He said he just laughed it off and treated it for the nonsense that it was.
He said there was no option to not do it. We as parents were not informed it was happening and it only came to light he had completed it when we were having a discussion about the NO2NP campaign.
I’m in Highland which spearheaded the whole NP thing so our children were guinea pigs.

Whattochoosenow · 07/12/2021 07:26

I think it was the NO2NP people who discovered the survey was not actually anonymous because each child had to log in using a number or something which is always going to leave a digital trail.

ArabellaScott · 07/12/2021 09:15

@CharlieParley

When I phoned my DC's school to opt out, I was told that the school had already refused to do the survey. The reasons I was given were those raised by parents and others on this thread and in the media. Main concerns were around privacy, informed consent, data protection, collection process and purpose and inappropriate questions about sexual behaviour.

As for those who ask how else we can plan to protect children, there is of course already an excellent regular survey, administered since 1982, called the Scottish Schools Adolescent Lifestyle and Substance Use Survey (SALSUS). That asks questions about drugs, alcohol etc, but crucially is fully anonymised at the point of data collection. This is also opt-out, but as the data is collected under exam conditions with extra measures taken to ensure that not even the teacher supervising knows which pupil is filling out which survey, this is acceptable. Teachers are also not allowed to explain questions to the pupils.

Back to this newly redesigned Health and Wellbeing Census - I think if even school staff who strongly believe in evidence-based planning of interventions in order to benefit their pupils and who therefore regularly design and administer their own school surveys reject this survey, it's worth considering that there may be something wrong with this particular one.

Thanks for that info, Charlie - I had imagined that there were already ways of gathering info/data on young people's wellbeing and health issues that somehow manage to ask relevant and useful and necessary questions without causing such a stramash.

It's not like children have just discovered sex or the gov have just realised children/young people have these experiences/issues.

This is obviously a terribly badly designed and poorly thought through exercise that seems to have several risks with no clearly defined benefits.

I expect the whole thing will be scrapped shortly, given that at least 8 (?) LA's have withdrawn and more are reviewing.

It's such a grand waste of everyone's time and energy.

NasaTheFunny · 07/12/2021 10:32

It's such a grand waste of everyone's time and energy.
And tax payer's money. Let's remember that these badly design research activities are being paid for by us, the tax payers.

CharlieParley · 07/12/2021 12:58

I think it's hugely entertaining that so many pearl clutchers can't possibly conceive that it might be helpful to know a bit more about the sexual habits of the young but can and do believe that the information is being gathered by a bunch of nosey perverts with a sexual agenda.

Where is this nonsense idea that we're pearl clutchers coming from? The parent generation in uproar about this were teens in the 80s and 90s, not the 40s. If you don't know what we got up to, there's plenty of material out there about our teenage antics.

It's ludicrous to assume that no child under 16 is having sex, and we're certainly not doing that. It's equally ludicrous to assume that all or even most children under 16 are having sex. NATSAL 3, done in 2010 showed that only 1 in 3 UK youngsters had lost their virginity by the time they were 16 and the Face of Global Sex Report (2016) showed that UK respondents had - on average - lost their virginity at 18 years and 4 months.

There's also emerging data suggesting that that average age to lose one's virginity is going up as well as the percentage not having sex at all (according to the findings of a longitudinal study into the private lives of Millenials, they are losing their virginity later than their parents).

www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/millennials-lose-virginity-later-than-previous-generations-2018-5%3famp

Whether this will be true for later generations remains to be seen.

And there is a qualitative difference between asking

Have you ever had sexual intercourse?
and
How many sexual partners have you had in the last 12 months?
or
Which of these sexual practices have you engaged in?

Frankly, the notion that surveys have zero impact on respondents is absurd. There's decades of research into this phenomenon. There's a whole field dedicated to the techniques of writing surveys precisely because a badly designed and administered survey can and often does lead to incorrect results and can also lead to unwanted and lasting effects on respondents.

Kids don't float through life unaffected by what they encounter. They take it all in and come to their own, often flawed, conclusions about how the world works. A survey like this will have an impact on some children. Probably fewer than those who will have fun pretending to be drug-addled alcoholic sex addicts, but those kids who are affected still matter.

And we owe it to them to make sure that what we ask of the children is age appropriate. These sex questions are not.

The latter are of course what's getting all the attention right now, but there are also equally intrusive questions on family dynamics in the survey, such as how often their parents argue and so on.

And yes, I think we should ask what is the purpose of asking these questions, like the one about anal sex.

It's not to inform education planning. The Relationship Sexual Health and Parenting (RSHP) curriculum already includes a lesson on anal sex. It's not to inform efforts addressing concerns about girls being coerced into anal sex, because that's not being asked. It's not about finding out if young gay men are having anal sex, because quite frankly we know that already. And we also know about the disparity between the percentage of male respondents who answer that they are gay or bisexual and male respondents who answer that they are having or have had anal sex. That's also a well known data concern, therefore well researched too.

So why exactly is this question needed? And why do we need to ask it of underage children and particularly of underage children under the legal age of consent?

We're asking these children to incriminate themselves on a survey designed in a way that allows them to be identified. As a parent, I have a right and a duty to ask why.

Gottasinggottadance · 09/12/2021 16:27

Great post Charlie.

Interesting development - the Children's Commissioner has said the survey may infringe children's human rights: www.holyrood.com/news/view,childrens-commissioner-calls-for-government-to-pause-rollout-of-controversial-teen-sex-survey.

Could the SG have made any more of a mess of this whole thing?

Gottasinggottadance · 09/12/2021 16:43

Can't get link to work I am afraid. But see Mandy Rhodes on Twitter - it's linked from there.

StarryEyeSurprise · 09/12/2021 17:09

@334bu

The fact that so many councils are withdrawing this survey, should surely indicate that there is something wrong with this survey. Asking 14 year olds questions which imply that risky sexual activity is normal is dubious at the very least.
14 year olds? It's upper secondary is it not?