4 day week

[Fandangoes]

Apologies if someone has already started a thread about this, I did check but couldn't see one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good work / life balance but how on earth can SNP promise to introduce a 4 day working week for everyone, on the same pay and expect private businesses to accommodate that? Especially when so many businesses are fighting to survive coming out of this pandemic.

How is this supposed to work?

Politics is so depressing now - whenever someone suggests doing anything:
It isn't a priority
We don't need to do that it isn't as bad as it used to be
There's no magic money tree
Where is the money coming from?
blah blah blah

It is a decent policy to trial. £10m is a drop in the ocean. Progress is always worth having.

So how would it work? Employer would be asked to change my terms and conditions to 32 instead of 40 hours? What stops them changing my annual salary at the same time as reducing my hours? Wouldn’t i have to sign a new contract?
Just don’t see how this can be forced on the private sector,

@dementedpixie

Our school is changing the school week after the summer so it will essentially be 4½ days with the ½ day on a Friday.

dementedpixie we have this already in the Lothians, but the teachers still work on a Friday afternoon - it just consolidates all of their non-contact time into a block.

I think the funding is to test and trial different models. Clearly it's something that can't just happen overnight, but it's definitely worth exploring and identifying sectors where it might be more difficult so more thought can go into that. Many public services would need to employ more people to make this work as they need to maintain staff numbers for shifts.

The org I work for is planning to shorten the working week from 37 to 35 hours. I currently work 30 hours and have been told I'll get the choice whether to keep the same WTE (and therefore pay) or the same hours (which will technically be a slight increase in pay).

For it to be a true 4 day week most businesses would need to close for 3 days a week rather than two. So that instead of the weekend being Sat & Sun it would be Fri, Sat, Sun for example. Otherwise there is no difference than the flexible working policy that is already in place to allow people to request shorter working weeks to suit lifestyle. The main difference is that employers are expected to pay them the same amount for these reduced hours. Putting pressure on businesses in an already difficult time. How is that progress? Services also then become unavailable on 3 days a week instead of 2. And we are all expected to work longer days in the 4 days we are working. How is that progress?

Another problem with this is the whole host of businesses that need to operate 7 days a week. So I assume staff will just work in shifts to cover the 7 days as they do now but each member of staff only working a max of 4 days so creating more jobs. These are often lower paid jobs. People will still work overtime in these jobs if they need to earn more money. How does that help their mental health?

How is this any different than just raising the minimum wage - thereby allowing people to choose to work less hours to earn the same or work the same for more income?

If we are all just working shifts to cover all of the days then that’s not a true 4 day working week

Apparently Microsoft tried it in Japan and productivity improved 40%. They certainly didn't lose any money I'm sure after a productivity increase. A few big companies have trialled it because their own analysts felt it would be more cost effective. Not sure how it planned out but I think I'll go have a google!

I'd love a four day week.

Good for climate change as well apparently.

As I said earlier you are completely missing out businesses where productivity / revenue IS based on the number of hours of worked. That is a LOT of businesses. It is impossible to be any more productive in those hours. As a very basic example imagine a hairdresser - they can only cut so many people’s hair. If they only work 4 days instead of 5 they cut less people’s hair - they generate less income or charge more?

Also if you would love a 4 day week submit a request to your employer. You already have a right to request this under flexible working legislation and the employer must have a valid business reason to deny your request.

The difficulty isn't with a lot of office type jobs, although I'm part time, I still get the same amount of work to complete, the only benefit to me is not being required to be present for more hours.

The difficulty is with those jobs where being present is the job. So you can't just serve more customers in less time so have a day off or in manufacturing where you are already going at the fastest speed.

In these types of jobs, lost time is genuinely lost so having staff in less hours means you need more staff or to pay overtime. Very divisive and costly for some businesses although it might make no difference or an improvement for others.

I guess savings could be made on the cost of childcare both for families and the government so that could part fund. If people have been working at home and this continues, then 4 longer days may not have too much impact as they might be saving commuting time.

@Fandangoes

Also if you would love a 4 day week submit a request to your employer. You already have a right to request this under flexible working legislation and the employer must have a valid business reason to deny your request.

Many employers extended this right but I'm sure they are only obliged to consider it and give a business reason if you have a young child. That was the case when my DC were young anyway.

4 x 8 hour days isn’t particularly family friendly either. By the time you factor in a lunch break and commuting time that is even longer out of the house and young children will be ready for bed by the time you get home

Of course it won't work for all businesses but that isn't a reason not to look at it. What does work for everyone? Most shops are open seven days a week and many of their staff will work well more than the average 35-37 of office type jobs.

It could benefit thousands of people.

So how will that work - do only the people working in jobs that hours can be reduced receive the effective pay rise? And if you are unlucky enough to work in a job that cannot ( a large proportion of which will be lower paid jobs) then tough?

Flexible working applies to Everybody! You can request to work a 4 day week because you want to play golf if you want to, you don’t have to give a reason. It is not only for people with young children. You are right that the employer can say no but they are supposed to have a business reason to do so. I think it would be a far better policy to strengthen this already existing legislation

Do you still want your bins collected Mon-Fri or to 10pm Mon-Thur?

Same with
Libraries
Leisure Centres
Playgroups
Social Care

Who decides what day in five they are closed?

@Fandangoes

Flexible working applies to Everybody! You can request to work a 4 day week because you want to play golf if you want to, you don’t have to give a reason. It is not only for people with young children. You are right that the employer can say no but they are supposed to have a business reason to do so. I think it would be a far better policy to strengthen this already existing legislation

Seems that it's been updated since my day. My employer at the time did open it up to anyone and one bloke applied for and received a compressed week because he was a semi professional poker player and would do one overnight on-line poker with the US folks so he could have a long lie on his day off :)

At that time i think legally anyone could apply but the rules around the consideration and reasons etc only applied to parents of young kids.

It's good that it's been expanded to cover everyone.

Will it be like the 48 hour working time directive, where you essential tick the box to opt out in England - if you want the job. So on paper everyone is offered it, but to keep your job you opt out.? Or could it be a rolling four day week, working four on and four off?

@JamMakingWannaBe

Do you still want your bins collected Mon-Fri or to 10pm Mon-Thur?

Same with
Libraries
Leisure Centres
Playgroups
Social Care

Who decides what day in five they are closed?

people work on rotas obviously

In my town bins are collected six days a week now, the library is open seven days including some late evenings.

Our university library is open 24 hours per day as are supermarkets - they all have more than one member of staff.

Honestly, it is like they are proposing moving us to space. Were peopel always this scared of even the smallest little change that might improve things?

@Fandangoes

So how will that work - do only the people working in jobs that hours can be reduced receive the effective pay rise? And if you are unlucky enough to work in a job that cannot ( a large proportion of which will be lower paid jobs) then tough?

Well there are pros and cons to every job. When I signed up to my job I knew I would never be able to take a day off to do something random or see my kids nativity or whatever. I have to stick to my agreed holidays.

Hairdressers know I suppose that if they don't have customers then they don't get paid.

Doctors know they might have to be on call at times.

Bar staff know they will work long and unsociable hours.

And so on.

I don't think it's about enforcing equity across all professions it about how to make people's working lives better if it can be done. Much like your example of 'if business needs allow' which is their failsafe as it is and would continue to be so I would imagine.

I think flexible working is a fantastic piece of legislation, I think everybody should be allowed to work the number of hours that is best for their mental health and lifestyle balance. I just don’t think the govt needs to pay £10m to enable some businesses to trial a 4 day week. It’s not a fair policy because it doesn’t benefit anywhere near enough people. If the businesses that can do it truly don’t lose any money and productivity rises why would they need govt aid to trial it.

I say give it a go and see what happens. At least the SNP aren't just sitting back saying 'everyone has had enough time off' like the bastard Tories!

I think it is a great idea and would be a substantial improvement in work-life balance. I wanted this when I first had children but was laughed at for even suggesting it where I worked.

The French have a 35 hour working week (introduced in 2000).

This doesn't mean that everyone in France stops working after 35 hours but that the 35 hours is a threshold - after which overtime and holiday entitlements kick in.

I haven’t read about the proposal but isn’t the idea that a reduced working week would mean that sickness absence rates would reduce thus making it financially viable and improving the overall health of the employees of an organisation. Even with the hairdressing example that would apply?

Where are the idiot SNP going to find the extra 20% of doctors and nurses to cover all those days off for hospital staff? It takes 5 years to train a doctor, and a further nine or ten to specialise as a consultant.
Scotland can’t afford to pay for the NHS staffing they already have - they’re subsidised by England, via the Barnett formula.
And we now have a massive backlog of patients needing surgery, thanks to the pandemic. Bloody stupid time to start cutting surgeon’s hours, is it not?

@Babdoc

Where are the idiot SNP going to find the extra 20% of doctors and nurses to cover all those days off for hospital staff? It takes 5 years to train a doctor, and a further nine or ten to specialise as a consultant. Scotland can’t afford to pay for the NHS staffing they already have - they’re subsidised by England, via the Barnett formula. And we now have a massive backlog of patients needing surgery, thanks to the pandemic. Bloody stupid time to start cutting surgeon’s hours, is it not?

These are the exact same arguments that have been made every single time there is a working hours cut.

They said the same when the very first holiday pay was introduced.

Always the same arguments.