Moving to England

[Iwouldratherbesailing]

We are seriously contemplating moving to England due to the on going threat of Scotland gaining independence. We are not English, but both work in finance / economics and are well aware of the economic devastation that independence will wreak. We have worked hard for every penny we have earned but stand to lose the lot should we have a GBP mortgage to pay with devalued Scottish wages / overly inflated higher rate taxes. Has anyone else made active plans to move? My employer will be pulling out of Scotland should independence happen, but I would be allowed to work remotely here. It’s just the ongoing level of stress that I find hard to handle. If only I could be as naive to the damage as an SNP voter.

I know of two families selling up and moving to England from Scotland in next 6 months as well
They have some family moved to England already which helps as they know places better

I don't think we'd be more likely to move to England specifically if Scottish independence goes through but I think it substantially increases the chance that we might move full stop (my DH in the kind of job that tends to get visas in lots of countries). I don't support nationalism and would be very wary of how the country will feel if that is voted for. Plus, while I totally accept that there needs to be a long-term view, in the short-term I think there would probably be an enormous economic hit and if that hit is as a result of something I was utterly opposed to...

My DD is still in a huff with me for not taking Irish citizenship before she was born which would have given us more options post-Brexit. The thought of a hard border with England just makes me shudder considering how long this union has been on the go compared to the EU membership. [my view is that an independent Scotland would have to have an open immigration policy to encourage working age folk to come here to balance out our aging population, England wouldn't live with that hence the need for a hard border; you can see the discrepancy in SG vs UKG views when you look at the post-Brexit immigration policy discussions]

We are likely to be forced to move because my job is highly likely to be moved out of Scotland and I'm the higher earner. My job is very specific and unless I wish to go back to long hours and being on call (I don't!) then we will be forced to move.

The SNP promise a lot but am yet to see delivery on a lot of it - anyone remember getting rid of council tax..... Pretty sure I'm still paying it and they have gone very quiet on that one.

The potential "divorce" will be very messy, very expensive and ruthless. People are naive to think the UK govt is going to give an inch on major things. Bit like Donald Trump insisting Mexico would pay for a Wall.......

I’m thinking of it too. We struggled to sell our house pre the last referendum but sold it afterwards easily.

I do think most people aren’t really daft enough to vote for the plunge into the abyss with no plan that would be independence though, really.

Nationalism -
identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

This sums up the English Government.

Hostile environment, Windrush, the disregard for the other countries in the UK ( see Brexit , NI situation to name some examples).

By all means, move to England. I'd love to live in Liverpool. I can't, however, agree with the 'I hate nationalism so I'm moving to England' argument.

This sums up the English Government. There is no English government.

So that definition also applies to Scotland or do you want to go down the definition of "Civic Nationalism" Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a form of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in an inclusive form of nationalism that adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights.

Not much of that happening in Scotland under the SNP either.

Those of you who are thinking of leaving, when would you aim to do it? NS stated her intention to call Indy Ref 2 'before the end of 2023', but you don't want to jump too soon/unnecessarily, or wait too long until the likely outcome is clear and then find everyone is trying to sell up and move. So do you sell soon, rent and wait ... or what?

My decision will be more dictated by family circumstances than the SNP agenda.

DH thinks he will retire in 2 years ish. That coincides with our DSs finishing uni - one lives at home so obvs needs to remain in travelling distance for now or move out and he's not looking to do that yet. Would also depend on my job and whether I was able to retire at the same time as DH even though I am 5 years younger.

So even before all this, our plan was to sell up the family home when DC are settled or use some equity to get them a start somewhere. The high level plan was maybe to move to the Borders (or The Lake District is we could afford it) anyway. So for us it would only be a slight adjustment to plan.

So I'd say ball park 2023/4 is the earliest sketchy plan date. A million different things could affect that though.

I am worried about leaving it too late. If house prices plummet, if an independent Scotland places restrictions on how much money you can take out of the country, if we aren’t accepted in England. But moving too soon means a huge upheaval potentially for nothing.

For us it would be at the point that my work moves which is very dependent on the outcome followed by potential divorce timelines..... Reality we saw with brexit how long the negotiations take and actually will probably be longer as there is more elements to divide!

I'm hoping we don't have to move but reality is my job has us set for life especially with pension and took me 6 years to even get to the level of being able to apply so we would move simply for my job!

One of the reasons income tax rates haven’t already been raised more in Scotland is that the 6 - 8 per cent of the Scottish population that pay higher rate income tax are the most mobile sector of the population and it’s thought there’s a real risk they would decamp over the Border. Better to lie low for now while Scotland is part of the U.K. It’s sheer folly to think that moderate earners won’t be hit hard after independence to bear the combined costs of COVID , the referendum and all the consequent disruption, new institutions etc that would be required. Some consider that a cost worth bearing. I’m more worried about the fact that it means that the focus will again be on matters other than improving education and another generation will be lost while sight lines and energy are directed elsewhere. I’m not prepared to wait ten/ 20 years or so to see if the gamble pays off.
Also for those who say that you protect assets pensions etc by moving your accounts, your place of residence needs to be outwith Scotland too to escape e.g. losing an immediate percentage of all your savings, pension pot etc wherever that’s located. Wealth taxes, such as they have elsewhere in the world, are based on a resident citizen’s worldwide holdings .

Very well put @EvelynBeatrice

Ms Sturgeon has told Channel four news that they have not worked out the costs of independence and how it would be paid for.

And I’m worried about it. I don’t want to to spend my old age in poverty with no proper services, nor my dcs to suffer.

So moving seems sensible as there will clearly be a massive financial hit at least short term.

Should Scotland gain independence, I'll be moving north in a heartbeat. I would rather be part of a small progressive country with policies which I prefer than the Tory ridden England that Westminster rules rough shod over. That and the Eton cronyism that the Boris Johnston cabinet are currently running, I'ld rather my taxes go to Edinburgh than Westminster. As for Brexit, the rest of the UK will have a serious economic downturn for years to come.

Look at the small scandi and Nordic countries, they function fine as small EU members, why can't Scotland?

Scotland is far from progressive.

There is just as much cronyism and corruption in Scotland but people are too frightened to speak out. The “progressive” nature of our politics is the Emperor’s New Clothes.

Small scandi countries are also extremely expensive for even the basics like food......

If Scotland gains independence, any idea where it will find 30,000+ jobs for those civil servants currently working for Westminster (HMRC, DWP, Job Centre) in Scotland? Obviously those jobs will return to England. I assume some may move with their job but I'm betting a lot won't.

And the 1000s of military personnel based in Scotland. Not to mention the effects on local economies of bases being shut.

Absolutely. I've seen the effect of an American Airforce base in England closing down, the local economy was decimated.

@Crankley

If Scotland gains independence, any idea where it will find 30,000+ jobs for those civil servants currently working for Westminster (HMRC, DWP, Job Centre) in Scotland? Obviously those jobs will return to England. I assume some may move with their job but I'm betting a lot won't.

Some departments can be transferred to Scottish Govt as was done with FSA a few years back. But this was a mamouth task for 1 department let alone the 10+ departments up here. Yes your right some dept will move south the international dept based in Glasgow being a key one.

There are also some dept which are very very difficult to separate as expertised are based in Scotland as are the offices but work is for the whole of the UK which are well paid but very very specific jobs. I can't see the SG having the money to match the wages and UK govt will want to keep the experts they have trained and supported. For some jobs it's a 2-3 year training programme even though experts in their areas before they join the departments!

I might consider moving, if there was a Vote for independence outcome to the Scottish referendum.

I have lived all my adult life in Scotland, so it would be a significant wrench. I am not Scottish but my husband and child are.

I grew up in a country riven by nationalism and dislike nationalism intensely.

A previous poster is correct though, that certain areas of England have become increasingly nationalistic, so that is not a reason To leave Scotland and move to England.

Nationalism is on the increase, across Europe and the Americas, so I fear we are entering a stage of history that will be blighted by it.

Scotland may well be okay over the longer term, but there will be Immense disruption in the short to medium term. And for me that is the rest of my life considering my age. I think given a choice, I would choose to avoid living through that.

I had a conversation with an acquaintance regarding this matter. They were a strong supporter of independence. I made a few brief comments about economic uncertainty connected to Scottish independence and their response was that as they lived on benefits due to disability, they had nothing to lose and therefore it was worth a try.

I actually understand this perspective and I also think in general younger people are less risk averse than older people, generally because they have had less time to accrue stability and financial security. I was surprised, this didn’t have a greater impact on the Brexit vote. All generalisations of course.

I do wonder though, if a significant minority of those with something to lose, decide to jump ship because of the economic uncertainty that is connected with Scottish independence, what will that mean for the tax intake required from the Scottish government to support this massive endeavour and also to continue appropriately supporting those who cannot support themselves?

There will be Supporters of Scottish independence, for whom these issues are irrelevant. I am a strong believer that nationalism is mostly a strong emotional belief, a heart over mind scenario if you will. So really economic concerns or uncertainties are not at the forefront of some peoples minds. This isn’t a criticism, more I feel an observation of the prevailing zeitgeist.

Brexit would never have happened, if people had been concerned about economic uncertainty And that makes me think, there is a chance that Scottish independence could be voted through as well.

I think Brexit was ill-advised to put it mildly, and I feel the same about Scottish independence. However that does not mean it will not happen.

Whatever happens, I wish Scotland all the best in the future that it chooses for itself. I along with everyone else, will need to decide where my future lies.

I'm from England originally and my husband is Scottish. We're already looking at moving back to England. I'm finding living here more & more difficult; I hate the toxic, ugly political situation and the sectarianism still shocks the hell out of me. We're also very worried about the situation with govt occupational pensions and disability benefits should Scotland leave the UK.

We're looking to be about halfway between our family here and our family in England.
In some ways, the thought of leaving this beautifully scenic place is heartbreaking but I'm sure we'll find somewhere equally lovely back in England.

Storm in a teacup.