Ding Ding Ding! Round 5 Salmond and Sturgeon

[Blurberoo]

New thread...

I've voted SNP in the past. I've no intention of voting for them now, not just down to this enquiry but a whole range of reasons - HCB, GRA, the internal culture of the SNP party, the abject failure to meet even basic duty of care towards women being subjected to targeted abuse & harassment from within the party. Sturgeon's behaviour in light of what's happened to Joanna Cherry absolutely appalls me. It points to a significant deficit in decency & integrity, leaving aside all the issues uncovered in the enquiry of her failings etc.

There's very little to entice me to ever consider a vote for the SNP now. But I am curious at to why others would vote SNP at the moment. What are the positives that entice that vote, cos I can't see any?

I think people think NS did a good job with covid. That has to be a big part of it.

Which I understand but it’s definitely a claim that can be challenged.

I also think Hamilton's review is very much coming from an evidence position. There are effectively two sides of the story - she remembered or she didn't. It's pretty impossible to prove someone did remember and he finds her believable. So he says no code breech.

Because on this point that is what it boils down to; it's for parliament to decide if she misled them (even if parliament did lob that grenade back) but he doesn't find evidence she broke the ministerial code.

Shrug. This entire affair is a clusterfuck over which she presided. Some of her closest aides are in it up to their neck, and as I said last night if she didn't know then in her position I'd have several people would be out on their asses right now for ineptitude of this scale.

Hamilton makes it clear, through the redactions, that he believes Aberdein was told the name of a complainant by an unnamed person who is close to Sturgeon. They remain in post.

The committee report makes it clear Leslie Evans is incompetent to be operating at such a senior level. She remains in post.

If Sturgeon herself is innocent why is she unwilling to address the failings of those around her?

It seems to me that the answer can only be "because she can't- they know too much"

If Sturgeon herself is innocent why is she unwilling to address the failings of those around her?

I think that's a key question. And it's one that tells me Sturgeon is either spectacularly inept & or was in far more control of matters than she 'recalls'.

Ultimately she's compromised by both the clusterfuck she presided over, or by those she's incapable of sacking. Either way, she really ought not to remain as FM IMO.

great synopsis Stats. There really can be no other explanation taking everything into account.

Whilst Hamilton cannot say for certain whether she remembered or not. You can infer from the other corroborating evidence that she probably did so the balance of probability could have kicked in, that's my (clearly biased) view though.

And as much as I hate to draw parallels, Nicola not acting any better than Boris protecting his cronies here. I suppose Dominic very eventually got the sack...

I’m also interested in why you would move to SNP now, @tava63?
I’m ex-SNP myself, voted and campaigned for Indy. Won’t be voting SNP for the same reasons as @TheShadowyFeminist and am ambivalent about Indy at the moment as I don’t have faith in a competent negotiation process. But I appreciate that there are other points of view around and want to avoid the entrenchment that seems to be endemic in politics just now!

Would never vote SNP due to their inept handling of daily governance and their nationalism . Check out the Balkan states if you want to see the impact of this sort of division .

Their argument that as an independent country they can borrow more to improve the country seems at odds with the hundreds of millions they have wasted on their “ investment activism” which has destroyed more jobs than it’s created.

I believe there are people who have changed from being SNP voters over this on this thread.

I'd be astonished if that was the case. As has been said before though, we see what we want to see. For me, the argument hasn't stacked up from the start - mainly because nobody seems to know what the argument is. Was there a big cover up and failure to act over harassment? Or was it all a stitch up to 'get Salmond'. Nobody on here seems to be able to decide. Obviously it can't be both. The 'argument' seems to boil down to 'I don't care which it is as long as it can be proven that, whichever one, it's Nicola Sturgeon's fault and she has to go.' I don't think that's going to convince many SNP voters that this isn't just politically motivated.
That doesn't mean mistakes weren't made which need to be learned from. However, I think it's clear it's mostly just been political fodder for many - Fraser Murdo, who sat on the inquiry, has been bragging for over a year how he's going to 'destroy' Nicola Sturgeon over this. Obviously not interested in a single word she or anyone else has to say.
I have questions over some SNP policies, however, nothing whatsoever about this issue has changed my mind on who I'd vote for.

I'd be astonished if that was the case.

Try reading. Or are you outright calling posters liars?

weird post. I think most people understand that there are many more than just one issue and it's complex. Do you mean Murdo Fraser?

@Beepbeeprichie

A QC appointed by the snp to look at a remit set out by the snp find the leader of the snp not guilty. Who would have guessed it

Yes that is exactly what it boils down to, sadly!

Just in case anyone wants to read the full report, here's a link to it

Link to report

Statistically has been helpfully pulling out some good snippets so far 👍

[quote ATieLikeRichardGere]Andy Wightman’s take is very measured, offers nothing to conspiracy theorists, has criticism for pretty much everyone involved:
andywightman.scot/committee-on-the-scottish-government-handling-of-harassment-complaints[/quote]
That's a good and helpful review - thanks! It clarifies to me that it's not really "about" Sturgeon or Salmond as such... just the giant omnishambles of the whole thing, that failed the complainants and demonstrated what a disaster the whole SG process and procedures have become. Even if NS didn't break the ministerial code it is astonishing to me that she can look at the findings and think "oh, that's fine, I came out of it well and no one needs to resign or be sacked".

@Blurberoo my main reason for changing is because I want close positive relations with the European Union. I've always seen myself as European and I believe the EU should always be at it's core a peace project.

I very reluctantly voted for independence in 2014 rationally because I believe it is a civic duty to vote and my intuition was that the Conservatives were going to take us out of the EU, Boris Johnson was going to be PM and there wd be no proper debate on how we defend ourselves in the decisions around Trident.

Personally I seriously doubt if we will get another vote on independence in the next 10 years. But at present if we do I will vote for independence and whilst I will be more enthusiastic this time I still will be sad.

As has been said before though, we see what we want to see.

Some certainly avoid seeing what's right in front of their eyes, that's very true.

I find it bizarre that the failings of Scotgov, the SNP & Sturgeon herself can be brushed off with a 'meh' but if this whole clusterfuck has demonstrated anything, it's the low standards of discourse, often as a deliberate whataboutery tactic, to constantly derail from what can otherwise be a good way of peeing back the layers of something as messy & complicated as this whole affair.

I like scrutiny, I like breaking things down to get a better understanding. And for the most part, these threads have been a good way to delve behind the obfuscation from some of the key players. Leslie Evans' evidence for e.g. has been quite jaw dropping throughout all this, and yet her many appearances in front of the committee show a woman unencumbered with doubt or low confidence in what she's done. It's been quite fascinating to watch.

If I had a sliver of Leslie Evans’ chutzpah I’d be a happy woman!

So I suppose to answer the question i wouldn’t vote SNP as view them with a few exceptions second rate and generally incompetent . They only have a small country to run so how hard can it be ? What I didn’t realise was
how SG , civil service et al were so intertwined so the Surgeon/ Salmond fiasco has shone a light on its very murky workings .

Blurberoo I know! I think that's were I went wrong in business life.

Where. I did used to be able to spell..

I like scrutiny, I like breaking things down to get a better understanding
as do I. The very selectively edited bits of the reports posted on here can easily be countered by widening the quote a little - some are even contradicted in the very next sentence when you read further in the actual report itself. Someone on here repeated the claim that Sturgeon said to parliament the meeting in her house was party business - the Hamilton report goes on to say that Salmond had 'overstretched' that argument and that when he checked the parliamentary records she had categorically not said that. I could go on..
I'm not calling anyone a liar Stat - I've not seen anyone here saying they had been going to vote SNP and changed their mind in the course of this thread, but I'm maybe wrong. I'd just be surprised if that was the case as the anti SNP feeling here has seemed to me pretty vehement from the kick off.
Yes, I meant Murdo Fraser sorry - please keep me right, I'm sure I've probably got a few apostrophes wrong along the way as well!
As to why nobody's been sacked - the inquiry report only came out today! Or, should, like Sturgeon, people just be hung drawn and quartered anyway, regardless of looking at the actual evidence/ reports assessment
Leslely Evans grillings are still on youtube if anyone's interested in hearing for themselves what she's got to say. three very long sessions

I haven't selectively edited anything

Have voted SNP in the past but won't now primarily for the same reasons as ShadowyFeminist

@happygolurkey

I like scrutiny, I like breaking things down to get a better understanding as do I. The very selectively edited bits of the reports posted on here can easily be countered by widening the quote a little - some are even contradicted in the very next sentence when you read further in the actual report itself. Someone on here repeated the claim that Sturgeon said to parliament the meeting in her house was party business - the Hamilton report goes on to say that Salmond had 'overstretched' that argument and that when he checked the parliamentary records she had categorically not said that. I could go on.. I'm not calling anyone a liar Stat - I've not seen anyone here saying they had been going to vote SNP and changed their mind in the course of this thread, but I'm maybe wrong. I'd just be surprised if that was the case as the anti SNP feeling here has seemed to me pretty vehement from the kick off. Yes, I meant Murdo Fraser sorry - please keep me right, I'm sure I've probably got a few apostrophes wrong along the way as well! As to why nobody's been sacked - the inquiry report only came out today! Or, should, like Sturgeon, people just be hung drawn and quartered anyway, regardless of looking at the actual evidence/ reports assessment Leslely Evans grillings are still on youtube if anyone's interested in hearing for themselves what she's got to say. three very long sessions

There were two posts just prior to yours and now another that have said exactly that and it's been said many times on this group of threads, maybe by the same people, I'm not keeping count. But yes, there are [posters who have changed their voting views based on this.

I don't give a toss about apostrophes - very guilty of that myself, I thought it important to get someone's name correct to ensure that anyone wanting to check anything looks for the correct person, but that's maybe just me.