State/Private + Higher English

[Navhos]

We are moving to Scotland from England in May and my daughter will go into S5. She has a place at a private school in Edinburgh but we are still deliberating over whether or not to send her to the catchment state school. We can afford the private school but it will be a definite stretch. The catchment school is one of the lowest attaining in the city - I think 23% achieve the 5 Cs according to the published tables. The reason I would still go for it is I firmly believe the quality of teaching is mixed in every school (state and private) and my daughter is very self motivated and independent so I believe she will do well in whatever school she's at. She has also never had any issues socially, so I don't see that being a problem in any school either. I also think the convenience of being able to walk to school can't be underestimated. However, I am still torn about it and just don't know how to make a decision - HELP!
The second issue is that the choices at the state school would mean she'd have to do Higher English and Higher Modern Studies (as well as the three Sciences), however at the private school she could do Geography and Psychology (in S5) as well as the the three Sciences, which is what she'd prefer to do.

However, the issue is, even if you are sure at 16 you want to go into Science (medicine), is it short sighted not to take English? And if she does take English, is the private school really worth it for the sake of her first choice of Geography over Modern Studies (which she is not familiar with but I'm sure would enjoy just as much). She already has level 9 for English Literature and Language at IGCSE (a level 7 is equivalent to an A) - is that enough? Or would she be mad not to do it at Higher?

Higher biology leads into advanced higher much better than higher human biology does.... again not especially vital for most, but if your daughter is chasing straight As for medicine that may be another consideration.

Agree with motherstongue that girls getting 9s (&8s) at St Georges will get A at Higher.
I think you also need to consider what sort of learning environment your DD is used to. I don't know whether she is in private, state, grammar in England at moment.

St Georges (and all the other Edinburgh private schools) have very little in the way of disruption in class or any serious behavioural issues. I've had to laugh over the years as DDs have come home with tales of a big drama that's happened in class and resulted in someone being sent to Head of Year! It's usually about once a term and the kind of incident that would likely happen several times a day in a state school.
The classes are small, 16 in most higher classes and much smaller for some subjects. The ability range is narrow and about half the class will get an A, and most of rest a B, so the teacher can pitch the teaching at that level and most kids will be able to keep up. In Leith acad even at Higher there will be wide ability range in class with some failing.
It's a stressful move at that age to start new school, new city, make new friends. I think if she's used to private then I would try and keep her there for these 2 important years.

I appreciate everyone's advice - it's been very helpful.

While I do agree with some of the views from others I do think some are a little biased towards private education due to their own experiences. I have taught in both sectors and my own children are educated in the state sector through choice. My eldest two both achieved 5 As at Higher and three good AHs and attend good unis. The perception that there is disruption in a class several times a day in S5 is concerning as it is so far from the truth as most young people who remain at school have aspirations to do well. Some may struggle academically that is true and the pass grade may vary more than in the private sector however a good teacher should be able to cater to all of these abilities without it being detrimental to any of the students. In some state schools the higher classes can be very small in size due to reduced numbers taking the subject so no real issue with class sizes. Practical subjects like sciences have a cap of 20 so never bigger than that. I do agree that if someone is used to private then this is not the time to change. I don’t have experience of Leith academy but may be worth asking questions about support for medical applications, numbers going into higher education, opportunities for AHs in the sciences before making a decision. I am delighted to currently see offers coming in for my pupils in the state sector for a wide variety of courses including medicine.

Both my sons attend(ed) a state high school.

In higher classes there are typically up to 20 students. Many classes will be sitting at 12-15.

In advanced higher you are looking at up to 18-20 for a popular subject like modern studies however many of the subjects only have 4-10 students in class. My son took RMPS AH with only three other students but he was timetabled for three hours a week and the rest was independent study.

Poor behaviour in class is not really an issue after S4.

Mine are all State educated. The older 2 have straight As at H and AH. However it is not the case that there is little disruption after S4. It didn't bother my lot because they are used to it and with their established friendship groups.

Science being a practical subject is limited in class size to around 20. However all 3 sciences have bi-level Nat 5 / Higher classes where mine attended and a good few students just filling time. AHs in State schools are notorious for students not applying themselves and dropping out halfway through.

If Ops DD is coming from an English private school or even a selective State / Grammar it would be a huge culture shock to go to my local State comp or Leith Academy (based on their results and demographics).

Not all State schools in Scotland are created equally.

@SempreSuiGeneris she is at a private school and always has been but is on an academic scholarship which means we pay substantially less fees, which is why moving to paying full feels would be a real stretch for us. The scholarships in Scotland all seem to be income related which we wouldn't qualify for. It also means I don't have any recent experience of what state schools are like these days.

Many people I have spoke to also speak of the 'culture shock' but I am yet to really understand what is meant by that. I too went to a school that didn't perform much better than Leith Academy and while the academic kids who were going to go on to professional jobs were probably in the minority, there still wasn't any significant disruption (unless it was a cover teacher!) and my memory is that the vast majority were nice kids, at all levels of attainment. Have schools/behaviour got significantly worse in the 30 years since I left?
Although my daughter's school is private, it is not academically selective so there is a huge mix of abilities, including children who are 'failing' academically. I would say the behaviour (as she describes it) is generally much better than my school expereince, though things still happen (kids caught vaping in the toilets etc.).

I have felt in some ways that my daughter has missed out on being with children from more diverse backgrounds being in a private school. There is of course diversity, but I feel it must be less diverse than it would be somewhere like Leith Academy. I also think that if she goes into a public service job, then familiarity and commonality with all types of people would serve her well. But then again, I also appreciate that throwing her into so much change at such a crucial time in her life might not be prudent. However, she is not a sensitive child and tends to just get on with things with a positive attitude, which is why I am thinking both scenarios may well work for her.

About widening access and adjusted entry - Leith is a LEAPS group 2 school, so your DD would only be eligible if she has an additional factor, such as being a young carer, getting free school meals or living in a deprived area.

www.leapsonline.org/node/1081

@IM0GEN

On this online checker: admission-checker.is.ed.ac.uk/

Leith Academy is plus flag without any other factors checked.

I teach in a state school with a pretty similar demographic to LA, maybe a little more deprived.

My Higher class had 30 kids in it this year... H classes of 25-30 isn't uncommon in Maths/English in state schools.

I would say behaviour isn't really an issue with H classes though.

Someone I tutored from LA was eligible for widening access because her parents didn't go to uni - the factors aren't only FSM, postcode.

[quote Navhos]@IM0GEN

On this online checker: admission-checker.is.ed.ac.uk/

Leith Academy is plus flag without any other factors checked.[/quote]
Yes, the link on your page goes to the page I linked to on the LEAPS website.

However I’m sure you know that each university has their own criteria for contextual entry . Some, for example, will not include applicants such as your daughter who have attended a private school for most of their secondary education and then moved to another school that sends few children to university for 5th or 6th year.

Otherwise some parents ( not you of course ) would seek to game the system.

Navhos. Agree with much of your post. Hence why my DC didn't go private. Just wanted you to be aware of the challenges.

My DD1 was the only child in her year group of over 100 to get 5 As. 3% is the norm for State schools. There are some State schools where it is higher (eg the oft quoted East Renf schools have around 15%) but this means that the average for State schools more generally is even lower. For private schools it is around 40%.

There is no preparation for Medicine or Law entrance exams or extra curricular CV building in my DDs' school. If DC express sufficient interest the Guidance Department will help them access it. It is embedded in all the private schools in my area. My DC didn't want to be lawyers or doctors so this wasn't an issue for them. If you are a doctor then you probably wouldn't need the school support?

@SempreSuiGeneris no, not a doctor or with any connections . . . funnily enough I asked the private school about UCAT prep which they don't have (her current school has a weekly BMAT ECA from Y10 I think) and they also said that students arrange their own voluntary work whereas again, at my daughter's current school they have week long interships twice a year for senior students who are interested in medicine. I had therefore assumed we would need to try and find these things ourselves, regardless of which school.

@Navhos

Here are the 6th year options for Leith Academy for 6th year now. I’m sure you’ve seen this.

leithacademy.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/S5-and-S6-LP-2021-22-update.

They don’t appear to offer AH Chemistry or AH Biology and your DD would need at least one if not both. Like most schools , you can request a subject or attend a college or another school on one day ( I see it’s a Tuesday at Leith ) but there’s never any guarantee that they will run the course you want or have places.

So what is your DDs plan for her 6th year subjects if you go down this route?

@IM0GEN

When I follow your link it's just taking me to log in page . . . is there any way you could share it with me in another way so I can read it.

I have the senior school handbook and to be honest, I couldn't work out which AH highers were on offer from what they gave me so I am super keen to see that and could most certainly be a deciding factor.

Thank you!

I’ll try again

www.leapsonline.org/node/1081

Here’s some of the text from that page

LEAPS Group 2 Schools

In Group 2 schools, we support students who have the potential to achieve a minimum of 3 highers by the time they finish school and match one or more of the following LEAPS eligibility criteria:

student who is first generation in family to apply to higher education or whose parents do not already have a degree. This includes students whose parents may have briefly participated in higher education but did not achieve a degree. (Please note that a student whose parent/guardian/carer has achieved any degree ­– irrespective of mode of study, type of institution, location of study – would not be LEAPS eligible under this criterion.)
student from a low income background (for instance where a student is entitled to EMA, free meals in school, or where the family is entitled to a benefit such as Universal Credit).
student who has spent time in care or being looked after or who is estranged.
student who is a young carer - by this we mean a young person who cares, unpaid, for a friend or family member who due to illness, frailty, disability, a mental health problem or an addiction cannot cope without their support.
student who lives in one of Scotland’s 20% most disadvantaged communities as defined by the Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation (SIMD20). Please check your postcode here.

If you are unsure if you or an individual is eligible for LEAPS support, please contact us for clarification.

LEAPS Group 2 Schools
Schools in Group 2 typically have a more established tradition of students progressing to higher education. Students in these schools who match any of the LEAPS eligibility criteria are entitled to individualised support during S5 and S6.

LEAPS Group 2 schools
Alva Academy*
Balerno Community High School
Balfron High School*
Bathgate Academy
Beeslack Community High School
Berwickshire High School
Bo'ness Academy*
Boroughmuir High School
Braes High School*
Broughton High School
Broxburn Academy
Craigmount High School
Currie Community High School
Dalkeith High School
Deans Community High School
Denny High School*
Dunbar Grammar School
Dunblane High School*
Earlston High School
Falkirk High School*
Firrhill High School
Galashiels Academy
Graeme High School*
Hawick High School
Holy Rood RC High School
Inveralmond Community High School
James Gillespie's High School
James Young High School Jedburgh Grammar School
Kelso High School
Knox Academy
Larbert High School*
Lasswade High School
Leith Academy
Linlithgow Academy
McLaren High School*
Musselburgh Grammar School
North Berwick High School
Peebles High School
Penicuik High School
Portobello High School
Preston Lodge High School
Queensferry Community High School
Royal High School
Selkirk High School
St Augustine's RC High School
St Kentigern's Academy
St Margaret's Academy
St Modan's High School*
St Mungo's RC High School*
St Thomas of Aquin's RC High School
Stirling High School*
Trinity Academy
Wallace High School*
West Calder High School
Whitburn Academy

@IM0GEN sorry, I meant the link to the AH options - thank you!

I am Glasgow based and privates here do have support. DDs also have friends at the local "good" State who got specific help and support via school. Surprised this is not standard in Edinburgh privates. Just shows how difficult it is to generalise.

IMOGEN makes a good point about access to AH. My DDs' school operates AHs on a LA cluster basis. Most students end up going between schools. Provision very much depends on uptake from year to year.

If your daughter is coming from a private school in England there is no way I would put her in a state school in Edinburgh at this stage in her education, let alone one which isn’t very high performing. The culture shock will be massive just moving here, never mind going into the state sector when she has never been in it. Don’t even think about it is my advice. My daughter went to a state school for sixth form in England from always being in private schools.
She was bullied for the first time in her life and got really poor results. Moving to another country to a school with poor results will be a disaster in my view. It does depend on her personality and friendship groups though. Scotland is very different from England . She will struggle I think.

@IM0GEN I found it! Goodness, that is very limited isn't it.

Screenshot

Sorry final point on clustering and AHs to be aware of. If a school isn't operating within a cluster environment and has a stable intake of AH pupils where they can predict Higher results reliably they will start AH courses in June. If schools are operating in a cluster environment they need LA sign off to admit AH candidates post Higher results. This means they don't start teaching in earnest till late August.

This impacted my DDs but actually they still had plenty of time. They both found AH lighter in workload than Highers. DD1 did 3 AHs and a crash Higher in S6.

Based on your requirements and the state school option I suspect you might be better going private. One other factor (which no-one has mentioned) is that in states schools it is increasingly common to have "bi-level" classes - particularly in smaller schools/non-core subjects. This can mean that both H and N5 pupils are in the same class or H and AH pupils together. The teacher will split their time between the two groups. It's admittedly less likely with the subjects your daughter is considering but not impossible; it's definitely worth asking about at Leith though. Many students are fine with it but given that your daughter will already have a bit of a culture shock this could potentially add to it!

@IM0GEN and @FuckingHateRats I just watch the video on choices with Mr. Stewart and they've actually changed it since the version I was sent and my daughter now would be able to do all the subjects she wants to for Higher (subject to space of course). Also, nice to put a face to Mr Stewart as it is him that I've been in contact with and who has given me a good initial impression of the school.