Nicolas coordinated outfit with BSL interpreter

[ikswobel]

This is a new thing .. has anyone noticed?
Today she is wearing maroon and so is the interpreter

On Thursday it was a pink one

We joke at work she always asks the interpreter to wear shapeless fleece

I don't think anyone's implying that it's a sinister plot. Just that the SNP (as other political parties, some more than others) does put a lot of weight on image and being seen to look "at one", organised and in control. Understandably, given they ARE in government, and want to oversee the creation of a new independent country. I'd bloody well hope they are "organised and in control"! Everyone laughs at Boris for his unkempt buffoon act, and they laughed at Teresa May when the set fell down around her at conference and she did some bad dancing, and they laughed at Jeremy Corbyn's dodgy dress sense, and they laughed at Ed Milliband eating a bacon sandwich badly. (And I still laugh at Willie Rennie and the pigs on you tube whenever I'm feeling a bit glum). People like (and possibly respect more) politicians seeming slick, professional and competent, and any failures in image hang around for a lot longer than they like. It may be shallow, but it's how things are.

However, I don't think an amusing observation that NS and the BSL interpreters seem to be dressing alike is evidence of a sinister plot. I'm liking the (very unshapeless) dresses of them all. I'm no fan of the SNP at all, but I'd much rather judge them for their failures in government than because they are a bit too interested in how they look.

deaf person here!

BSL is not a translation of English. A very common misconception. Hence why we now have the BSL Scotland Act to get better recognition and to make public sector organisations provide information in BSL if requested - writing things down is not an alternative.

If I said "my name is Sarah" in BSL it would be "name me Sarah" so writing things down is still difficult to read.

BSL is a very visual language. If you said the shits hit the fan re: covid with a happy face, well you are just going to confuse us.

Some BSL users do not lip read very well and not all BSL users wear hearing aids because what's the point?

BSL users call themselves Deaf with a capital D. hearing aid users are deaf with a small d. (or hearing impaired).

Hope this helps.

Thank you iwillnever! That's really interesting... I had assumed it was more of a literal translation. Possibly because the only stuff we learnt in school was the letters to sign our names. I knew there was more to it than that, but it really hadn't occurred to me that it wasn't basically subtitles of what was being said. It's really impressive they manage to do it "live" in that case, with what is presumably very little advance sight of what is going to be said. Kudos!

I have to say, I have been impressed with the inclusion of interpreters at the briefings right from the outset. And that they are actually there, rather than plonked on to the side of the broadcast afterwards as in the Downing Street ones. (Because if any channel is showing an extract at a later date, the odds they show the signed one will be minimal). See. That's one thing I think the SG have done well. Written down and put out in public .

The briefings from NI seem to have two interpreters. Is one of them doing BSL and another the Irish equivalent? Are the sign languages really different, does anyone know?

I have to say, I have been impressed with the inclusion of interpreters at the briefings right from the outset.

Scotland has a BSL act recognising it as an official language. They are the only nation the U.K. who has done this so far, despite a lot of campaigning.

Wales has a live interpreter too. Northern Ireland often has two working at the same time, interpreting into BSL and Irish Sign Language. It’s just Boris who isn’t bothered about proper accessibility.

Pressed post by accident.

ISL is actually closer to French Sign Language than BSL. It’s got a one handed alphabet like American sign whereas bsl which uses both hands. They’re basically very different languages.

" It’s just Boris who isn’t bothered about proper accessibility."

Surprise surprise!

I've definitely noticed over the past few weeks that the colours of outfits have complimented each other, I thought perhaps the interpreter had a work wardrobe now or something. To be fair it's tough on them to have to choose an outfit each day so it'd make sense if it'd been decided someone would take care of it.

BSL is amazing. Did you know that in some primary schools they use it as their one of their additional languages instead of French, Spanish etc.? I wish it could be on the news as a matter of course.

@PurpleDaisies

Pressed post by accident. ISL is actually closer to French Sign Language than BSL. It’s got a one handed alphabet like American sign whereas bsl which uses both hands. They’re basically very different languages.

Thanks!

Sorry for the questions, but is there a religious divide as to which people learn in Northern Ireland? It would seem more logical to standardise if they are so different but presumably there are cultural and historic reasons why they haven't. (Also American Sign Language vs BSL) . I can see that being quite a barrier to communication between signers (is that the right word?!) from different countries that use the same(ish!) spoken language.

Is a live Gaelic translation also available, if it's to do with it being an official language? Presumably on BBC alba, but I've not seen one on the SG website where they do host the recordings of the briefings. Wales presumably also does a translation in Welsh (or maybe MD says exactly the same thing in Welsh afterwards... I've not watched one of his all the way through)?

So much I haven't considered before....

It would seem more logical to standardise if they are so different but presumably there are cultural and historic reasons why they haven't.

Why?

Nobody is suggesting we standardise spoken languages across the world. Why should signed languages be any different?

Sorry - I totally didn't mean to imply criticism. I just thought that given that users of any sign language are always going to experience barriers to communication with many people, there may have historically been a move to bring together the Deaf community from different countries by a more standardised language. I understand that countries with distinct spoken languages may want to keep a separate sign language, but there are apparently at least 3 separate sign languages for English speaking countries (ISL, BSL and ASL). So a Deaf scientist travelling to the US for a conference (for example) would be at a disadvantage that her hearing colleagues would not be, even if signing were provided, because they would be signing a different language to the one she used.

So a Deaf scientist travelling to the US for a conference (for example) would be at a disadvantage that her hearing colleagues would not be, even if signing were provided, because they would be signing a different language to the one she used.

To be fair, deaf scientists are often at a disadvantage compared with their hearing colleagues in terms of communication in this country. The fact they’re in America is neither here nor there. They would need to take their own interpreter, just as if I went to a conference in Italy, I would need one because I don’t speak Italian. There isn’t any reason signed languages should, or need to be, similar to each other.

International sign language is a thing. Deaf people who know it can use that to communicate with signers who use different signed languages.

Thanks for humouring me purple!

To be fair, deaf scientists are often at a disadvantage compared with their hearing colleagues in terms of communication in this country.

Yes, I totally understand this!

They would need to take their own interpreter, just as if I went to a conference in Italy, I would need one because I don’t speak Italian.

And this. Though at non UK conferences I have been to (grand total of 2 admittedly, and not outside Europe) the official language of the conference has been English, with translators into the host language, or into English from the host nation language if needed. That may be unusual in my field (though it's not a particularly "anglocentric" field in my experience) but I suppose English has historically been the most widely understood language (for not entirely palatable reasons, obviously). So I recognise that I'm very privileged in being both a native English speaker, and a hearing person in that community, so I wouldn't usually need to provide an interpreter.

International sign language is a thing. Deaf people who know it can use that to communicate with signers who use different signed languages.

Aaaah! That's good! That makes sense... So people would usually use their own language, but may also have a kind of basic knowledge of international sign language to communicate with others if needed... Like my rudimentary Spanish that is used in extremis, that will usually get me what I want in a Spanish taverna, but wouldn't win any prizes for vocabulary diversity or grammatical correctness.

No worries NotAnActualSheep. You’ve got interesting questions.

The history of bsl is actually really fascinating, with it being banned at times, sign language users being treated awfully, etc etc so there’s a lot of pride and protectiveness that goes along with it. Maybe that’s similar to speaking Gaelic in Scotland or Welsh in Wales when everyone might as well just speak English.

Signed languages do evolve over time, with some regional variations in bsl becoming less because of technology meaning deaf communities from across the country interacting more easily and interpreters on TV. Handshapes change too to reflect changes in technology -think about how a mobile is different to an old fashioned landline phone and you might guess how that sign has changed. There are still strong regional varieties though. I find it hard understanding some Scottish bsl users.

Have you ever thought of learning? There are lots of level 1 courses on zoom now, although it’s much easier to learn in person.

Have you ever thought of learning? There are lots of level 1 courses on zoom now, although it’s much easier to learn in person.

You know, I think I'm going to look into this! It looks fascinating. And at least you don't have to struggle with faking an accent, which I found I'm really, really bad at when learning European spoken languages.

I totally get the pride and protectiveness, given its history. I know Deaf people used to be made to lipread, which while I can see has its uses, obviously isn't good for everyone. And it is totally a way that anyone with a disability is being made to shoehorn into an "ableist" world, rather than adjustments being made to help them. I've really noticed with masks, quite how much I rely on lipreading, and I've only got very mild hearing loss and don't use hearing aids or anything. So God knows what it is like for anyone who has that as their only form of received communication, without even the partial sound I have to work with, especially if they were forbidden from signing while learning to communicate.

I learnt that about the hand shapes from Have I Got News for You recently! The "thumb/ little finger" does seem quite a universal symbol though, and a bit more distinctive than "a palm by the ear", but I suppose it's all in the context. (I also want to know when the symbol for "save" in computer stuff is going to move on from being a floppy disc, which haven't been used for at least 20 years!) Interesting about the regional differences too. Though I struggle with understanding Glaswegian taxi drivers even after living in Scotland for 15 years, so I suppose its only fair that extends into signing too

And at least you don't have to struggle with faking an accent, which I found I'm really, really bad at when learning European spoken languages.

Lots of people struggle with the facial expression. I guess that’s the equivalent! Definitely give it a go. You never know when you’ll use it and it’s a great language to learn.

Masks are a nightmare. I’ve recently had issues with my own hearing and hadn’t realised how much I was lip reading. It’s a nightmare for my deaf friends and family.

This is a super picky thing to watch out for (and I know the spirit in which you meant it so it isn’t a criticism) - lots of members of the deaf community is not keen on “help”. It’s about equality of access to information, inclusion and opportunity. Loads of well meaning hearing people show up wanting to learn bsl to help deaf people (this was me a decade ago!) but it’s isn’t about help, it’s empowerment. Just something to bear in mind.

There’s a great campaign called “where’s the interpreter” that’s worth looking up, about forcing Boris to use an interpreter when he addresses the nation in the same way that all the other leaders do.

I didn’t see the episode of HIGNFY with bsl on it. Interesting that appeared in the mainstream tv which is pretty rare.

I've been learning BSL a few years. I love the Scots who passed a law that interpreters must be provided. I have many friends who struggle in England because of the lack of interpreters on the news.
I have moderate hearing loss and even I struggle with the poor subtitles if something is live!

If anyone is interested in learning BSL, Doncaster deaf trust has a free level 1 course.

Make sure you are taught by a deaf person. And make sure any course you go on is accredited by iBSL or Signature x

I worked with a man from Turkey who was deaf and learning BSL. And there was only one interpreter in the whole of Scotland trained in international sign language. Nightmare trying to teach this young man as he didn't know enough BSL to understand a BSL interpreter. Again just like BSL is not a translation of English, sign language is not the same all around the world.

I saw a great tweet once that said if you ask someone "do you lipread" you are putting the responsibility for communication onto their shoulders. You are saying please make this easier for ME, the hearing person. Much better to ask "what's your preferred method of communication". Lip reading is not an exact science.

Thanks so much for all your info purple, binky and iwillnever!

I'll look up the Doncaster Deaf Trust properly today...glanced last night, but got distracted by Baileys

And the point about it being empowerment and inclusion, rather than "help" makes sense too. As does the point about not putting the onus on the deaf person. All things to think about. I'm a misanthropic cow and my interest in learning isn't particularly altruistic. I don't yet know anyone who uses BSL to communicate anyway. It just looks like a really interesting language to learn/ understand. And as I say, I have been struck by quite how marginalised the deaf are, especially at the moment. The standard response of "oh, just wear one of those transparent masks" really doesn't seem to cut it in my mind, and you've helped me work out why it makes me feel a bit uneasy.

@NotAnActualSheep I’m interested in what you’re saying because I really noticed how expressive her face was. I’ve never paid much attention to the interpreters before on the conferences or anything really but I take it they’re supposed to do this?

In BSL facial expression take on the role of 'tone of voice' it is very much part of the language.

I've been really impressed with the Scottish interpreters

And at least you don't have to struggle with faking an accent, which I found I'm really, really bad at when learning European spoken languages.

Actually you do, BSL is a language it has regional variations the sign for 'arrange' in Scotland is rather rude version of 'have sex' in England.

And then you have scouse signs, they are a wonderful variation.

@sashh I remember during my stage 2 exam (that dates me as it was pre the change to levels) having to converse with a northern signer and we chuckled over different signs we used

@maverickallthetime

LOL, did they use Manchester numbers?

But there are apparently at least 3 separate sign languages for English speaking countries (ISL, BSL and ASL)

Canada has 3, In English speaking countries there are is also Auslan, NZ sign language and a few others, Ugandan SL is very close to British. UK Interpreters can work in Australia and New Zealand but not the USA.

On the other hand French Sign Language is close to ASL, ASL was developed from French SL.

If you look at the coverage of covid from NI they have 2 interpreters one using BSL (NI variation) and ISL.

Just to add tot he mix, in some areas of the UK different signs are used by Catholics and Protestants.