"Tightening the Edges"

[SephrinaX]

I've just read somewhere that Nicola will be announcing some tightening of the rules around the Christmas period.
What do people think that will mean?

Same.

However I don't think the world as we knew it will ever be the same anywhere.

Funny, I've found myself spending more time researching areas in England within commute distance too.

I agree with @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us I love Scotland and I don't particularly want to give up on it, much as mentally it would be more restful. Plenty of other EU countries have populist, nationalist parties gaining voter share so it's not specifically a Scottish problem.

The world as a whole has got to turn its back on identity politics and go back to government and policies that raise living standards, as their primary goal.

The 8 adults is a recommended maximum not a rule. I think across the UK they know a lot of people will mix far more than is advisable so there will be encouragement to keep risks low.

We're not going to have a bubble- both in laws at risk (one finishing a course of chemo and the other about to start). We usually have Christmas just us and the kids and visit both sets of parents at some point. In laws are local so will see them outside and will visit my parents probably in the spring- they're in an age group that should mean early vaccination.

I think it's great for people in different situations to us - I've got friends who live alone for example. But I think there have to be guidelines in case loads of people throw caution the winds.

There seems to be real issue with Covid in schools in some areas so I guess she may address that. Doesn’t affect us as we aren’t mixing or going to mix over Christmas anyway - would rather stay apart, communicate via zoom, and keep everyone safe.

The hyperbole in this thread!

Oh my sides!

We thought we were the only people seriously considering a move south if the SNP get their own way with independence... Really fancy the Northumberland coast. Have had lots of lovely holidays there and it's not that far from Edinburgh or Newcastle.

And we'd be better off too without the extra hammering on the tax.

I don't understand why people who dislike the SNP would move if Scotland became independent. If Scotland is independent the SNP vote would plummet. We'd be much more likely to have coalitions. Or, if the Tories and Labour managed to get their acts together and establish separate Scottish parties, then they'd be likely to pick up much more votes. People who want independence don't necessarily want the SNP and I don't think they'd continue to dominate elections after independence. They have burnt too many bridges with too many people including former members.

Because an independent Scotland would be even more financially fucked with proportionally less people earning and contributing to try to prop it up, we already overspend compared to what we contribute and people have been promised nirvana from the magic money tree. Or maybe people don't want to live with the turkeys that voted for Christmas? Much more chance of change of political approach in the wider uk.

People talk about not getting the people the voted for in charge but that's also true for non tory and non snp voters. It's very rare that I'm ever represented at any level by anyone I've voted for but that's democracy and unless I stand myself (and win), that's generally what I have to get on with. So it's either stay and get on with that or go somewhere else. People approaching retirement or older maybe don't have the tears to wait for change.

Probably all moot anyway as the world economy is decked for the foreseeable and it doesn't seem the best time to make a massive irreversible move, but since when has common sense been any part of the argument?

If you don't believe in the economic viability of independence, emotionally believe in resource sharing and shared heritage across the UK, it doesn't matter who you vote for post independence, we'll have surging costs, diminishing income and have identified everyone else in rUK as other.

And i can't see the division healing, independence is bound to still have, even in the snp supporters wildest dreams, still substantial areas of Scotland that didn't vote for it and a high percentage of people that didn't want it.

The same on the other side of course and I know many people who were bitterly disappointed in the 2014 outcome.

Brexit, independence - I don't know how we recover consensus from these things and covid has caused even more division itself.

Or maybe people don't want to live with the turkeys that voted for Christmas?
Well, that can't be the case because they're not thinking of moving to Germany or New Zealand. They're considering moving to England where they voted for the government that has proven monumentally incapable in the face of a global pandemic. A government that has overseen a death toll that made the UK the first country in Europe to have over 50,000 deaths. Whilst showing such a lack of understanding of economics that they have trashed the economy too.

I don't understand why people who dislike the SNP would move if Scotland became independent. If Scotland is independent the SNP vote would plummet.

There are lots of reasons I'm not in favour of independence, and the crapness of the SNP is just one of them, but I'm not convinced we would be rid of them after an independence vote. Also, even if down the line Scotland did decide to vote out the SNP, it would still be the SNP who would be in place to do all the critical arrangements/negotiations following a 'Leave' vote. Let's just think of the time lines involved - we are told now that we must have a referendum soon after the Scottish elections if the SNP are the largest party (next year if Ian Blackford gets his way), which means there is another three years or so left on the SNPs term, during which they will be the ones having to set up all the institutions needed (Central bank, defence force plus too many others to count) and critically they will be the ones negotiating with Westminster to disentangle us from the UK. Their record suggests they'd likely cock that up massively, and they have done everything possible to sour relations with Westminster, so I don't think we can expect any kindness there. They could do some serious and lasting damage in these years before there is even an opportunity to vote them out (which might not happen even then).

So yes, those able to nip over the border quite easily might well decide to do that.

Well, Scotland haven't done much better with the death toll figures or supporting business, and as people up thread have pointed out, the Tories can be voted out. Independence, once achieved is it. No going back.

I'm sure a vote could be taken to reverse independence. It's just that statistically it's hugely unlikely an independent country would vote to give up its independence.
There's no reason to suppose the SNP would be leading on negotiations or creating the economic framework. It's much more likely it would be a cross-party matter with support from experts in related specialisms from the private and public sector. Brexit should have taught us all that leaving negotiations open to the vagaries of party politics is a bad idea.

Scotland has done worse with death figures than England.

I disagree with the approach taken in all areas, but you can't make such a radical step based on one factor.

Unless we have something to offer, why would rUK want us back?

There's no reason to suppose the SNP would be leading on negotiations or creating the economic framework. It's much more likely it would be a cross-party matter with support from experts in related specialisms from the private and public sector. Brexit should have taught us all that leaving negotiations open to the vagaries of party politics is a bad idea.

This is probably how it should be done (with such matters resolved ideally before taking such a radical step so that we can all be properly informed about the risks) but I'm afraid there is absolutely no reason to think the SNP would concede any power. One thing they continue to display is their desire to micromanage and control every aspect of our lives - I have no faith whatsoever that they would suddenly decide to step aside and let others take over in the national interest. Their determination to push this through at what must be the worst possible time (when the whole world is in crisis and on the brink of financial collapse) because they sniff a chance to actually win it tells me everything I need to know about where 'what's best for Scotland' lies in their priority list.

And actually, since the SNP are the only ones who actually think Scexit is a good idea, why would any other parties be involved? Surely it's brexit all over again, with constant arguments over what Independence should be and lots of people trying to reverse the decision. I think its really naive to suppose this would be any more organised or cordial.

"You don't fund schools and hospitals by trashing the economy , and that's what leaving the EU would do." Ruth Davidson in 2016.

The richest MP ever to be elected (chancellor of the exchequer- worth £200m) informed us this week that we are facing the worst cuts to spending since records began. This is due to the mismanagement of the economy by the UK Government. They've given handouts worth £billions to friends through massively overpaying for ppe with no tender process.

Whoever is in charge of an independent Scotland would really have to try hard to match this level of corruption. Although I guess it's hard to imagine what its like to worry about keeping your business going/ feeding your family when you're the son of law of a multi billionaire so perhaps not Sunak's fault. And yes, Scotland could borrow just like rUK does and Standard and Poor said the highest credit rating would apply.

Smaller countries are generally more prosperous. Scotland has massive natural resources, is the only net exporter in the UK and there's no reason why we couldn't have higher standards of living without Westminster in charge. Every day, week, month is costing us dearly.

The UK Gov has borrowed £350 billion to cover covid related issues. We will be billed for 10 per cent. Yet we've received around £5billion. The union doesn't work for Scotland.

The UK Government is spending millions on adverts/ for algorithms etc to persuade people living in Scotland that they're better off with Westminster. They are not doing this for sentimental reasons. You'd be foolish to believe that's the case.

• and I know these facts won't matter a jot to probably nearly all the unionists on here but hey ho, such is life.

Do your homework, do you think contracts in Scotland during this crisis have been handed to companies headquartered in Scotland?

When you’ve finished commenting on the personal wealth of the U.K. chancellor, why don’t you ask the humble crofter, Blackford about how economically viable an independent Scotland would be? Perhaps some of the ‘natural resources’ you speak of are on his land?

Brex5hit, those export figures are a little disingenuous when over 60% of Scotland's exports are to rest of UK.

There will be countless papers by teams of economists if we get to referendum territory, I'm not getting into a numbers fight at this stage except to say that your cherry picked 'facts' don't prove the case.

We can safely save that debate for down the line when many accurate and revised since last time numbers will be crunched.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

And actually, since the SNP are the only ones who actually think Scexit is a good idea, why would any other parties be involved? Surely it's brexit all over again, with constant arguments over what Independence should be and lots of people trying to reverse the decision. I think its really naive to suppose this would be any more organised or cordial.

I know what you mean. But isn't it embarrassing ... on a global level ... that the UK seems one of the few long-established, democratic countries unable to hold a feasible referendum? One of the few places that can't get its politicians from all parties to sit round a table and say: let's look at the facts; let's write a cross-party white paper on the pros and cons; let's put that paper to the population and let them decide?

I don't have to trust the SNP then and neither does anyone else. I have to trust that all politicians will work in the national interest and that the population will vote for what they think is best, in good faith. That belief in politicians and in people - is the cornerstone of democracy.

I do have that trust and that faith... because although I think Boris has been a disaster of a PM during a pandemic, most Tories I know think the same. They voted for him to be a Brexit PM and I understand why they thought he'd be good at that. None of them would have voted for him to manage a pandemic response. So I have faith in their aims.

When people don't have faith in their fellow men and women, I think it says more about them. Remember Lord of the Flies was just a fantasy and when it happened in RL, the boys actually worked together. It's not inherent in human nature to want to sabotage and destroy, so that doesn't tend to be people's motivation when they vote.

Yep, I'm just going to flip to to the white paper for all the real facts....oh wait...

What pisses me off most is that the blame gets put on older folk for serving their own interests whereas the youngsters are all voting for their future. I think the youngsters are voting for their future and so they should, but the older generation are also using their life experience to vote for what they think will be best for their children and grandchildren. Obviously not everyone, but virtually everyone I know is trying to give the next generations the best opportunities and not thinking about themselves. Let's not ruin the soundbites and narrative with actual facts though...

Waxon - I'm glad the oldies voted well in the last referendum. I was too caught up in the tartan nonsense too see what I was really voting for.