Scottish Schools - Face masks now "obligatory"

[WeAllHaveWings]

Regardless of whether anyone agrees or not these are now "obligatory" on buses, in corridors, and communal areas (not sure exactly what that means, some classrooms, but guess school will clarify?)

So ds(16) will need a mask for:

Bus/entering school to well-being/registration class
Going to periods 1 - 7
Goingwil to break/lunch
Bus home

So does he use the same mask all day, taking it on/off 11 times, or should he have several masks for the day and a dirty mask bag?

What will you be doing?

I am thinking maybe 2-3 masks per day......one for before morning break, after morning break and after lunch.....as I doubt ds would take/use 11 masks totally hygienically!

I’m both amazed and appalled at it anyone could thinking masking children in a classroom setting is a good idea. Perhaps if it was the black death and the risks were huge. Maybe that would be a sensible risk assessment. But for covid? Are you kidding me? More people are currently dying of cancer due to delays in treatment! My dad’s neighbour killed herself last week through depression and that wasn’t being treated properly as facilities closed.

That is the whole point of wearing masks when in indoors among groups of people, even pupils.
Of course in very young children there is hardly any point. And if distancing is possible, with half size classes and good ventilation, that is better.

But the aim is to avoid numbers rising again in the community, particularly if undetected until it hits the older groups and then you have hospitals full and services affected.

The point is to prevent it from spreading in schools in the first place so that they don't have to close, or entire classes having to be sent home.

I really don't understand how you don't see this.

While there are cases in the community, and testing isn't regularly done, prevention should always be better.

thought this was a “good thing” for a virus that is killing fewer people than flu now

This is not true, btw. Not in absolute numbers, nor in %.

In addition to the higher death rates, you also have the morbidity that tends to last longer than the flu.

So, enough with the flu comparisons.

Thank you for your voice of reason @Lweji

Looking in more detail at the WHO guidance:

I honestly don’t see it Lweji.

My kids aren’t doing music. All sports cancelled. Some friends are not coping at all and on waiting lists for CAHMS. Life is utterly utterly different. My teenage nieces are suffering depression.

For what? Please tell me as the figures tell me it’s time to accept the virus is here to stay and manage as we do every other virus that hits us.

And don’t get me started on the myriad of other issues being left. Like operations - delayed for years - counselling, appointments, teeth and the decimation of music and theatres and all that brings joy

I must be insane as I simply don’t get it.

Sorry,
WHO guidance

apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1279750/retrieve

Areas with known or suspected widespread transmission and limited or no capacity to implement other containment measures such as physical distancing, contact tracing, appropriate testing, isolation and care for suspected and confirmed cases.

OR:

Settings where a physical distancing cannot be achieved (close contact):
General public on transportation (e.g., on a bus, plane, trains)
Specific working conditions which places the employee in close contact or potential close contact with others e.g., social workers, cashiers, servers - It doesn't mention schools, but I would say that class rooms are more of a risk than cashiers in a shop.

Both: Non-medical mask

Yes thanks Lweji.

And to clarify for the pp who is 'despairing ', I was referring to keeping myself around long enough to see my wee ones grow up.

My kids aren’t doing music. All sports cancelled. Some friends are not coping at all and on waiting lists for CAHMS. Life is utterly utterly different. My teenage nieces are suffering depression.

For what? Please tell me as the figures tell me it’s time to accept the virus is here to stay and manage as we do every other virus that hits us.

What you are complaining about is a world where social distancing is the main tool for prevention. Where things are cancelled and people can't get together at all. Where schools have to be closed because of outbreaks

I'm arguing that wearing masks can reduce the level of social distancing necessary to keep numbers down.

What we (in general, not Scotland specifically) are doing is exactly accepting that the virus is here to stay for at least a couple of years and managing it to keep it in control.
We use tools like testing, tracing, distancing, hand washing, better treatments... and masks.

It's easy to say, just accept the consequences, until people you know start dying. Scotland has not suffered greatly in this respect, so I suppose it's easy to dismiss it. But it's not to say that it can't get bad yet.

While there are cases in the community, and testing isn't regularly done, prevention should always be better.

This is the point others are making though. Prior to schools going back there was only targeted track and trace targeted testing. It picked up 47 cases in children. Schools went back and last week there were 17,000 tests on basis of parental / school concern. They picked up 49 cases or 0.3% positivity.

This suggests 1) track and trace is working 2) little evidence of unrecorded widespread community cases.

In addition to track and trace for specific outbreaks there is continuous testing in hospital and community care settings as well as specific workplaces. Given children's acknowledged smaller role in transmission
they are unlikely to be to the first to exhibit signs of a community outbreak or indeed drive it.

@Lweji, I am sorry, but you are quite selective with your quote.
For a start that doc is dates 9 June, so probably has been replaced by a dozen iterations (and if it was so important they waited a month+ to implement it). However...

1. Areas with known or suspected widespread transmission and limited or no capacity to implement other containment measures such as physical distancing, contact tracing, appropriate testing, isolation and care for suspected and confirmed cases. This is clearly a cross (my emphasis)
2. Settings with high population density where physical distancing cannot be achieved; surveillance and testing capacity, and isolation and quarantine facilities are limited Another cross
3. Settings where a physical distancing cannot be achieved (close contact) General public on transportation (e.g., on a bus, plane, trains) Specific working conditions which places the employee in close contact or potential close contact with others e.g., social workers, cashiers, servers This could be a tick
4. Settings where physical distancing cannot be achieved and increased risk of infection and/or negative outcomes Vulnerable populations: • People aged ≥60 years • People with underlying comorbidities, such as cardiovascular disease or diabetes mellitus, chronic lung disease, cancer, cerebrovascular disease, immunosuppression Protection Medical mask I would say this is not applicable.

Anyway, in their latest doc where they talked about masks for 12+ yrs old, they explicitly refer to "widespread" diffusion of the virus. (Don't have the quote on me now, but can be found quite easily).

I was referring to keeping myself around long enough to see my wee ones grow up

And you really think, that as a woman in your 30s, you are likely to die if you get Covid? Really??

Masks are a phsyical barrier which hinder communication. You cannot just carry on as you always would do while wearing a mask.

You're obviously a massive fan of masks, @Lweji and that's up to you. But lots of people hate them, avoid situations where they have to be worn, can't communicate with them, and if they're exempt are too scared to leave the house because people bark at them to wear a mask.

This is the 14 day ECDC map of distribution of cases in Europe.
While most of Scotland is yellow, the Tayside region (?) is dark orange. This is not particularly good news, even if overall there seem to be few cases at the moment.

What we know from the virus is that unchecked it can double in number of cases every 3 days or so.
We know that children older than 12 are as infectious as adults. We know that children tend to be asymptomatic. We know that asymptomatic people have been responsible for quite a lot of the spread of the virus. We know that symptomatic people are infectious a few days before onset of symptoms, longer than flu, for example.
What we know leads to the conclusion that it is possible, and likely, that schools may help spread the virus, and that when we do notice it, it is likely to be too late.

The alternative to wearing masks is to mass test regularly.

This is relevant to this discussion: www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/21/coronavirus-iurope-dozens-schools-report-infections-berlin-germany-spain

@Dinnafashyersel, in other words, almost 13000 tests to find 2 more teens, while the "normal' test and trace found 47 with just over 4000 tests.
All because of the frenzy of getting tested as soon as you cough once.
Now the backlash could be that people might NOT get tested when they have more serious symptoms.

You're obviously a massive fan of masks, @Lweji and that's up to you. But lots of people hate them, avoid situations where they have to be worn, can't communicate with them, and if they're exempt are too scared to leave the house because people bark at them to wear a mask

I'm not a fan, whatever that means. I find them useful. Even earlier I commented that it was like wearing a bra.

Lots of people won't have to wear masks if the people who don't find them that awful do wear them.

I hope this is recent enough: apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1296520/retrieve

"2. For children between six and 11 years of age, a risk-based approach should be applied to the decision to use of a mask. This approach should take into consideration:
• intensity of transmission in the area where the child is and updated data/available evidence on the risk of infection and transmission in this age group;
• social and cultural environment such as beliefs, customs, behaviour or social norms that influence the community and population’s social interactions, especially with and among children;
• the child’s capacity to comply with the appropriate use of masks and availability of appropriate adult supervision;
• potential impact of mask wearing on learning and psychosocial development; and
• additional specific considerations and adaptions for specific settings such as households with elderly relatives, schools, during sport activities or for children with disabilities or with underlying diseases."

"3. Advice on mask use in children and adolescents 12 years or older should follow the WHO guidance for mask use in adults1 and/or the national mask guidelines for adults.
Even where national guidelines apply, additional specific considerations (see below) and adaptions for special settings such as schools, during sport, or for children with disabilities or with underlying diseases will need to be specified."

The whole list provided by the WHO for use of masks are different situations. It's not AND between them.

3) Settings where a physical distancing cannot be achieved (close contact)
General public on transportation (e.g., on a bus, plane, trains)
Specific working conditions which places the employee in close contact or potential close contact with others e.g., social workers, cashiers, servers
This could be a tick

Well, yes. That was the one I selected as relevant, and made the comment as to how it would be applicable to schools.
The point was that there were a number of situations listed by the WHO, and only one of them mentioned "widespread". The school situation is mostly applicable to 3) and not only when transmission is widespread (in 1)).

Arkadia that is indeed the risk.

Or even "my child wears their mask all day as do all their classmates so it can't possibly be Covid"

Thankyou Lweji. Yes no SD in my class of 30 plus. 49 cases in children in the week and a half kids have been back @dinnafash?

Yes, but most likely these 49 were direct contacts in known clusters (47 in the week before they went back). No indication any of these cases required any treatment or were even symptomatic (given they were largely contacts of cases). Indeed in the Dundee school outbreak FM said today no sign of onward transmission from the 3 pupils affected to anyone else.

I think masks are a sop to public opinion rather than dealing with the terrible overcrowding in many schools, the lack of investment in new schools or bringing old schools up to standard, the lack of qualified teachers to implement smaller class sizes, the lack of money to utilise other venues etc. It's a joke. Education has been neglected for years and it is no better under the SNP.

But it’s 49 children out of 17,500 tests!! Negligible. And no evidence of actual illness.

Delivered the (prepared by SLT and with nice wee videos from S6 council) presentation preparing for Monday to my new S1s today. Maybe they'd had lots of discussion at home but they were so laid back about it . Some are already wearing face coverings.

This is anecdotal I know. I am not here to debate science or statistics. I am just sharing my experience.

Their discussion was rational, thoughtful and sweet .

I (hate to admit that) I was cautious after seeing u4t threads about how to go about baiting teachers to trip up and enable complaints. But it couldn't have been more of a non issue.

Hat's of to those kids and their parents.

Sharing an experience not looking to be mauled or to argue over the normalisation of wearing face coverings.

That's great, glad it was positive Lidl. They sound like a nice bunch.

We have young kids too who wear them with no issues and I'm wearing mine with no impact on teaching.

It's been the norm in many other countries - us Westerners just need to follow suit. 😉

It was fab. The perfect antidote to all the worrying I have done.

@Lidlfix

My two ( high school age ) had a similar talk Today and they are fine with it. None of their friends have an issue either. After all, they have all been wearing masks in shops / on the bus for weeks. Even my kid with sensory issues is coping fine with a soft fabric mask.

DS s close friends is vulnerable so I think he’s actually quite glad that everyone else will be wearing masks more and not just him. As you know, teenagers are herd animals.

I do feel sorry for the kids who are hearing impaired and rely on lip reading but I guess they will cope as they always do 😕