When are we going back to school 2

[RaraRachael]

New thread as the last one was getting full. Feel free to discuss, moan, speculate on anything to do with Scottish schools and what may/not be happening.

I've just found an interesting study from 2014 which looked at the effect of school closures during 2009 when H1N1 flu was circulating. Noone seems to be taking any lessons from history into account at the moment. Individual schools were shut when an outbreak occurred but for the most part education continued normally and H1N1 was known to affect under65s age groups much more than what we know so far about SARS CoV2

@Mistressiggi,
the tenterhooks I and my colleagues will be on is waiting to see whether or not we, our colleagues or our students, come down with corona virus, and how it is handled if we do.
In that case that one school, or part of it, will close for a max of 2 weeks and then reopen. The rest will carry on.

our council have just emailed to say week 1 will be a phased return, then full time, "dependent on any further announcements from the deputy first minister" - not very subtle dig there lol

Arkadia they will only reopen if there are enough non-symptomatic staff (or staff with negative test results) left to open it. I don't think staff who actually get COVID will be back teaching in two weeks. Some of them won't be back at all. So I can't share your optimism for a swift return.
Yonbonniebanks where do I start?
Like the rest of us, if you don't go to work, you don't get paid, we all have the same risks whether its from colleagues or students. It sucks and I don't want to go back to work myself. I don't think my own workplace is safe, but I have bills to pay. Bills that will still need to get paid if the teachers refusing to work make me unable to work in turn

1. To say "we all have the same risks" is clearly completely inaccurate. Lots of job situations involve different levels of exposure and numbers of colleagues/clients/pupils.
2. I've been paid throughout as I have continued to work throughout. I've not seen any decrease in my hours.
3. No teacher has "refused to work" schools have been closed due to government instructions.

now you're putting words into my mouth. I didn't say you were working LESS hours, I'm saying teachers I know have the same hours but less WORK.

You can complain all you want (as can I) about having to go back to work but that's all we can do. Go to your union to complain which you are lucky to have access to compared to other employees with no union recognition, so yes, you have less risks as a result of that.

Maybe EIS will get you some more money and holidays! Whilst others face redundancy. My husband has had to make several hundred in his department redundant and has been home in tears. Not to mention he has had to keep going to work despite his own manager having Covid 19 (they are a high security, government contracted organisation who could never lock down in the event of an outbreak. for security reasons I cannot say who they are though) Count your blessings as you are fast losing what little sympathy I had.

I myself work in an open plan office with 120 colleagues and that's just my floor (we have 4 floors at HQ). There are no windows, a shared kitchen, a shared entrance with 6 other companies across 20 floors in total and only 2 toilets per gender on each floor.

You have 30 kids in one room, maybe 10? staff you come into contact with during the day. And I'm sure parents will be at a distance. And you'll have windows won't you? So yeah, less people, less risks than for me and my DH.

You've got it pretty f*cking easy. I wish we had people campaigning for our workplaces and needs instead of coming on here to bleat about the job they still have and are likely to never lose.

@mondaywine

I wonder if this flexibility that employers are asked to have will extend to teachers, who also have childcare problems and who will struggle to work full time if their own children do not go back to school.

Not in my experience. I asked my employers (a school/LA) if I could have some flexibility due to my childrens' nursery reducing their hours and was told no.

@yonbonniebanks I'm sorry that you and your husband have hard it so tough and also very sorry for the employees who have been made redundant.

If your workplace is unsafe then you should also be fighting to have it made safe. This isn't a race to the bottom.

You are quickly losing my sympathy with your digs about more holidays and money. We get the same amount of holidays as.many.othrrs in the public sector then have the rest UNPAID. We won a pay rise because our working conditions had changed since it was last reviewed. Again it's not a race to the bottom - I'd support any.emplyee asking for a fair wage for the work they do.

But we digress - ultimately it is, in my opinion, reckless and foolhardy for the Scottish government to send every child and teacher back to school buildings full time in full sized classes. In no other area of work, that I'm aware of, has there been such a disregard for distancing and safety - two things that the first minister is adamant must be addressed before workplaces return.

Yonbonniebanks you are clearly have a bit of a rage and I sympathise with the difficult situation your dh finds himself in - it is possible to have empathy for other people living with different scenarios. I don't think a rational debate will be had with you since you are just seeing red. Fair enough. Your workplace should be made COVID secure before you return, it won't be business as usual.
For myself, I teach an average of 6x30 pupils a day which would be about 700 a week, I will walk every day through corridors including rooms belonging to about 25 staff and then there's the office corridor which has around 10.
What do all these figures actually mean though? If I could definitely prove I'm at greater risk than you, that doesn't mean that both of us shouldn't have access to mitigations to make our workplaces safer. Not a race to the bottom.
If I had less work to do I would have worked fewer hours If your teacher friends had less to do then they were different, and luckier, than me.
I won't get into a discussion about being lucky to be in a union, workers' rights are not a new thing in this country and is the least we should expect not a privilege.

It is reckless and foolhardy NOT to send them back full time

Do teachers not realise that huge numbers of low paid private sector workers in call centres / shops / cleaners etc will lose their jobs if kids are not in school full time

They cannot afford £35 a day per child for childminder for the 3 Days they are not in school
2 kids at £70 a day is a minumum wage workers take home pay !

The economy is going to crumble if kids are not back

Open schools Fully and manage any outbreaks ( IF we have any ) locally

There have been no major reports of outbreaks or illness in teachers or pupils the whole time the Hub schools have been open since March April throughout the UK

Can a compromise be that teachers ( if they choose ) wear the same Plastic see through visors that hairdresser/ opticians wear ?

Socially distance from other adults ?

Ventilate rooms where possible

Have lunch alone not in a group in staff room etc

These are all small measures similar to other workplaces

I really do not get the fuss that is being kicked up

Have been following this thread and it is literally going round and round in circles. People feel strongly and sometimes that blocks the ability to see things from another point of view. It’s a difficult situation and one that we have little say in anyway. I feel like I’m just waiting for the announcement on the 30th July now.

its a huge over reaction on the part of teachers. they are no more important than the rest of us eg if my DH falls sick or has to do childcare, and his workplace closes, that would literally impact upon every other job in Scotland due to what the company does. But as long as teachers are safe, who cares?

And yes, the old unpaid leave argument. Lets forget that they are still not working, simply because its not paid. lets forget that they are still on a higher yearly salary than the rest of the population who dont get as much leave, paid or otherwise.

And I know all about teaching, I trained to be one (but ultimately didn't do it because I was put off by the teachers on placement). I also have family who are teachers. DF was a science teacher, guidance teacher and an EIS rep. He says the things the teachers would complain about were ridiculous and part of the reason why he left teaching. My MIL, cousin and neighbour are all teachers. MIL has been gardening all the time, neighbour has been in garden sunbathing, cousin says she's been bored stiff.

I'll never forget the tv interview I saw during teacher strikes "we only get paid £36,000pa" and the journalists incredulous reaction.

I'm not wasting anymore time arguing with self centred teachers on here. Get back to work like the rest of us are being forced to.

Well said Mistress and Onebaby! If you are not happy with the conditions you could be returning to then do/say something- no point in getting annoyed at people who will. Teachers are only trying to work through what reality looks like for us and for our pupils. Many of the young people will be very anxious.

My long awaited timetable was finally issued and I have days with no NC periods and a Registration class so on those days my small poorly ventilated room will accommodate 7x 30 pupils (possibly more in S1-3) , some SLAs at various points . My classroom opens onto a flexible learning area which is well utilised by staff and senior pupils alike so leaving my door open would need me raising my voice which increases droplet spread. My corridor has 14 classrooms and 1 toilet which is supposed to be staff and disabled pupils. It's a hefty trek to main pupil toilets so we know they all use that one. Hand hygiene will be interesting.

I am keen to get back to school, working from home broke me a bit as I put in ridiculously long hours (there was always something to do, I couldn't switch off) and really missed my pupils and colleagues.

Some parents will want/expect us to wear masks and some will be appalled if we do. Equally some teachers will want to wear them and some won't. Can I read a chapter of our class novel wearing a mask - I have no idea. I am a happy mask wearer in shops etc .

Is it up to me to clean desks between users? I am not precious about doing it but Will I be equipped with sprays cloths etc? When is that supposed to happen? That's where classrooms are different from other working environments. Pupils can sit in as many as 7 classrooms in seat that has had potentially 7 other occupants that day. Hot desking and shared work spaces was one of the first things to end in my DH's work. He worked out of home throughout lock down.

Oh the £36000 quote again. Is there so little to say? Yawn.

The hubs can't be compared as the numbers are nothing like full schools and classrooms. Many took place in primary schools which have sinks in classrooms and buzzers went off every 20mins for hand washing. Pupils were kept in family groups and for most of the time lockdown was full on.

You have a low opinion of teachers. We get it.

But that doesn't prevent us from wanting to look after ourselves , our pupils and the families we all return to.

Funnily enough many of us are parents of school aged DC too.

I absolutely do get that schools school be made as safe as possible for teachers, but we can't delay going back the impact of not returning or returning very part time will be huge for education, the economy and vulnerable children.

What should be happening is looking at ways to make it safer, more handwashing facilities, sinks and taps should be being installed at entraces/exits now (as private nurseries and forest schools have done). Pupil movement in secondaries restricted where possible (teachers moving instead of pupils for non practical classes) , other spaces such as leisure centres and games halls used for teaching so that distancing can be managed. Furloghed Council staff brought in to assist in increased cleaning routines. There are lots of ways to manage the risk but get everyone back.

Track and trace seems to be working so far, so we can now manage local outbreaks better.

I don't think teachers are dispensable but we do need to get schools back. Lots of other workplaces are now returning where staff have also have contact with thousands of people per day in small, non ventilated spaces (shops, restaurants etc). OK they are wearing masks but people are touching them and wearing them incorrectly making them ineffective against the virus anyway.

My dp has worked throughout the pandemic in a busy NHS department, in close quarters with lots of other staff, dealing with equipment some of it has been used on covid patients (think factory production line kind of work ). They don't wear masks, it's not part of their PPE requirement, but they do wear plastic aprons and rubber gloves. Not one member of his very large department has caught covid despite being in close daily contact.

Dentists, nurses, physiotherapists, hairdressers, early years staff are all back to work. I don't see how teachers are all that different, we can take measures to minimise the risks.

Well, not dentists :(
Don't get a toothache now as the only therapy allowed is an extraction.

Dentists are working and treating people though. Yes some things have changed and there are some restrictions but they're not refusing to treat people because it's 'not safe.' They can now do more than extract teeth .

Yes
I agree invisimamma

Let the local education heads alongside councils have a plan in place similar to other workplaces ( who also work in confined spaces with little protection ) with additional measures like you said and let’s just get this ball rolling
Another thing I was thinking about ... worst case scenario

Do the teachers union have enough clout to actually vote not to go back to work full time by the way ? Would it ever come to this ? Just wondering...

Like a strike kind of thing ? Can’t imagine anything worse and sounds ridiculous but would this ever happen ?

I really hope the teachers won't strike. The country needs them to go back into schools, the children need them.

I really hope so too , but it seems that there is a lot of resistance

Just wondering if that would ever realistically happen

Hoping to be told a point blank no

@LoadsaBlusher I'd like to hear that too.

There's next to nothing on the TES forums (for Scotland). The main discussion boards (for England) are busier but still not enough evidence of resistance, considering strikes etc.

Unless there are other teacher discussion forums somewhere, it looks like a minority are kicking up a fuss.

EIS don't seem as upset or as bothered as they were before. I'd ex

The parents seem much more vocal online about getting back to ft education than the teachers are about safety.

posted too soon

I'd expect my union to kick up more of a fuss than EIS are if that many of us felt unsafe. So that, and the lack of discussion on TES makes me think most teachers are okay with the plans.

We had four days post announcement before we broke up. Not a lot of time for plans/objections to be raised.

I'm freshly incredulous that you qualified as a teacher Yonbonnie given the level of debate you've indulged in on here. Fair play to you.

But what are the plans? Maybe there would be more questions if there was more information forthcoming.

I have repeatedly said I want to be back in the classroom. But I want to know what that means. Cleaning? Hand hygiene? PPE or not? Testing? Paper free? Do I observe distancing? Shared resources permitted? What should the layout of my room be? What happens if I test positive or a family member , colleagues or pupil? What happens if a pupil attends despite showing symptoms?

These are genuine questions. I want to know the answers to these questions as a parent as much as a professional.

It's not being belligerent or reluctant. I don't think I am an any more important or dispensable than other employee in any sector. But if I am to instruct, guide and support approx 210 young people per day (and that's just my pupils not taking into account the ones who I pass in corridors) I need to know what the plan is.

My S6 DD is at the age where infection/transmission is higher risk (and yes I know what the rates are in Scotland right now) . I have a senior heavy timetable. So is that different from from a P1 or 2 teacher? My DD has PPE for her waitressing job and a a very strict COVID protocol, which she was trained up in before they reopened .

I have a date to return to school

I do wish people would stop insisting that as the hubs were fine, school will be too. It’s like comparing apples and pears. I taught in our hub. I never had more than 6 children in my room. I will have an awful lot more than that in August.
@SamSeabornforPresident no help here either. If we are not full time in school, I will not be able to work FT. What happens then?