Catch 22 schooling / housing - please help?

[DMJ2019]

Hi. I have just accepted a research fellowship at the University of Stirling and will be making the move from Norway to Scotland with my family this summer (note: none of us are Norwegian - partner is a Scot (Aberdeen) but has been living outside the UK, I am Dutch, my children are Dutch-American). My daughters will enter secondary, S1 and S5. We are considering basing ourselves in Glasgow west end or south side (Shawlands area) or in the Stirling area. We'll take a trip in a week's time to do some 'reconnaissance' :)

My dilemma is the catch 22 situation we find ourselves in with respect to schooling and housing. I have been informed by schools that they will not consider enrolment until I can show proof of permanent address. Choosing an apartment will be within a specific catchment area, but schools in Glasgow say that even if we live in the designated catchment area, the school cannot guarantee a place, as it will depend on available space. I also worry that if we cannot secure housing until this summer, I will not be able to register my girls for school until August, and they might not get into our school of choice at all. Does anyone have experience with this and suggestions on how to mitigate the situation?

The schools we are considering visiting are Dunblane and Wallace near Stirling, Hillhead and Hyndland in the west end, and Shawlands and Holyrood on the southside? Any thoughts on these and other suggestions?

In general, we are looking for a school that can provide good support to my daughters during this transition, as it is their second move to a new country in recent years and a big shift from the Norwegian education system. In addition, DD2 has diagnosed dyslexia, ADHD and other learning challenges. DD1 is set, based on age, to enter S5 but I wonder if going back a year to S4 might help prepare her better for exams next year?

Sorry long post! I would really appreciate your thoughts and insights! TIA

Entering any school for S5 in a completely new system is a tough call. Highers (the qualification that S5pupils sit) are challenging and the start of the route to university courses in Scotland. What month was your DC born? Not unusual to defer Jan/Feb birthdays.

Much of Dunblane's success, 2nd top in Scotland for pupils achieving 5 Highers, has been attributed to pupils having parents who are uni staff. I have no idea if that is true or not. It's certainly a a good school in a nice area. Placement requests are still being granted but some year groups are reaching capacity apparently.

Wallace is certainly more diverse .A fantastic headteacher has made big improvements . I found that support resources there were targeted to SEBN needs but that might have changed since I last taught there.

@WaxOnFeckOff can help with Stirling and Dunblane x

There has been no issue with placing requests for Dunblane from out of catchment for many years but Lidl will probably have better current info than me. :) (friend got a space in S1 starting this year too) Wallace would have been our catchment school but DSs didn't go due to bullying issues, it also wasn't a good fit for DS at the time either (7 years ago). However, in recent years it's doing well academically for it's very mixed catchment and it's good for sports. The senior team seem to be doing a good job. The main advantage of Dunblane is that there is very little in the way of discipline issues or LLD (low level disruption) so I think that contributes well to focus in classes. In the main, parents are supportive and engaged and that's probably another reason for success. It has a really nice atmosphere. I have had some issues with support but I don't think that is universal. Like all schools (and other places of work) there will be good, engaged staff and some not so much. DSs have friends from both schools who are now at uni or going.

If you wanted to hedge your bets, you could look at living in Bridge of Allan and you'd be in catchment for Wallace and few minutes on the train to Dunblane if you made (and were successful) a placing request.

@prettybird will have lots of info on the southside/shawlands and will talk you into Glasgow but being from Edinburgh originally myself, I'd go for Stirling area every time .

I'd say the advantage of Dunblane would be that they only start their Nat5s in 4th year, so if you did want to go back a year for DD1 it would be easier there than trying to slot into schools where they start the Nat5 curriculum in S3. If she goes into 5th year there will be less difference but it will be a challenge. I'm not sure what Wallace do now, but I think they start Nat5s in S3 as do most of the Glasgow schools that I am aware of.

Also to add, I don't think Dunblane or Wallace have any issue with places for catchment children so I really wouldn't worry about that. There is less pressure on places than in Glasgow.

I think the tutored thing is trotted out a lot re Dunblane but neither my DSs or any of their friends or other DC that I know have been tutored. DS2 has one friend who is but that boy is wanting high level results for oxford and isn't particularly academic (according to DS). I am sure there will be tutored DC, I just don't believe that it is as much as people think.

I think there are definite advantages of both schools tbh.

I agree with Wax re tutoring (and I say this as a teacher who does a little tutoring so I know the "market") it's exaggerated and bugs the crap out of DHS pupils and teachers .

If OP opted for S4 entry to Dunblane that is one of the year groups almost at capacity.

Lidl, would that mean an issue for catchment DC or just for placing requests? Would it just mean that there may be less options for subject choices as some subjects will be at capacity? Not really sure how it would work in the senior school as obvs they don't move round as a class for their subjects any more.

I will wax lyrical about the excellence of Shawlands Academy (which doesn't encourage/have a lot of tutoring as its demographic in general can't afford it) but having just had a boozy, impromptu barbecue , I'll be a bit more articulate tomorrow

Just for placement requests Wax. Already an issue re subjects, as it is in the "larger" Stirling schools.

I suppose that's good news really as back in the day they were desperate for placing requests in order to keep numbers up. All those original ones will have younger siblings going through now too I guess. There were 4 DC on my estate alone offered space (at S1) in what will now be the new 4th years and only 2 took the spaces.

On a separate note although a lot of people commute between Glasgow and Stirling and vice versa it’s a pretty miserable commute. There always seems to be queuing traffic where the traffic splits off onto the M876. The train is expensive and you’d need to get a bus from Stirling to the Uni. Driving isn’t so bad in the summer but winter never seems to end.

Stirling has some good areas to live in, plus Bridge of Allan and Dunblane are nice. I know many pupils that have done well in Wallace/Stirling & Dunblane High Schools.

I suppose in a way it's irrelevant to individual DC as the teaching in Dunblane is no worse or better that any other school, so either you can afford to (or decide to) tutor or you can't. So, overall the outcome for your individual child will be pretty much the same. It depends on how much priority you give to overall school results (results that are pulled together by the press, not the education authorities). Overall school results don't get you special treatment by the SQA or Uni's etc.

The catchment has a lot of engaged parents who are probably fairly intelligent or academic themselves so are likely to prioritise education and support their children, I think that is a major factor.

celtie DS is commuting from Stirling to Glasgow to Strathclyde Uni by train and it's been pretty straightforward but we are doing it the other way and he has a car to get to the train station. The Uni is a fair distance from both Stirling and BofA station - you'd need a bus (or bike?) as it's a fair walk and it's not nice and sunny every day - so that's a really good point. If you can drive non peak it's not too bad.

My friend who is my employee of Kip McGrath says majority are BofA ,Riverside, Cambusbarron, some Bannockburn, some Clacks.

Anecdotally I do know several parents who were looking at Dollar but opted for Dunblane ((when as Wax said they were pushing for requests) who looked at results and figured that with a range of tutors they'd still be quids in compared to school fees.

That said I've tutored Dollar and Beaconhurst pupils and been appalled by what money cannot buy.was genuinely shocked that parents would pay school fees and tutors but in some circles "networks" are still important.

In my estate we have DC attending 4 different primary schools, 3 different high schools plus 2 different private schools (mix of primary and secondary) - and that's just people I specifically know so there may be more and also doesn't include any DC going to special schools. The catchment/placing request system in action!

Wow, you ladies rock! Thanks so much for your thoughtful responses. Been packing and tired wish it were rather due to a 'boozy impromptu barbecue' :) but Oslo weather is a bit chilly just now will come back to this in the morning and respond more appropriately to your queries and comments. GN

My DD1's birthday is in June (2003). She'll be 16 on 11.6. So far, schools would not give me any recommendation as to how to proceed, S4 or S5. It seems I will have to commit to registering her in a specific school and then they will assess the best choice.

I want to make sure I give her enough time to adjust. Her mother tongue is English, but she has been schooled in Norwegian for the past 6 years, so much of her content knowledge is in another language.

@WaxOnFeckOff, could you explain what you mean by starting Nat5 curriculum in S4 rather than S3? I don't quite understand what that means.

It's good to hear reports about Dublane and Wallace. I will check them both out to get a feel for their school culture. Would one be in a better position to meet my DD2's needs for extra educational support or would they be fairly equal in that?

And for those of you who live near Stirling, Dunblane, BoA, what are the pro's and con's of living in that area? I'm concerned about being far removed from cafe culture, music venues, family activities etc. - things we enjoy when not working.

Also having difficulty finding 3-bed rental accommodation in the area that doesn't look like student accommodation - haha :)

A little bit more alert now

I don't think you'd have any difficulty getting dd1 into S5 at Shawlands at least (and probably the other schools) as there is a fair degree of churn (and Shawlands has a very high proportion of Roma pupils who tend not to stay on once education is not compulsory) but most Glasgow schools will be starting their Higher curriculum at the beginning of June, in order to get a few weeks in before they break up at the end of June.

So on the one hand you might be better to defer to S4 - but on the other hand, I know Shawlands (and most of the Glasgow schools you were thinking about?) start their Nat 5 curriculum at the end of S2, so will be half way through it

I know when I was helping a MNer who considering moving from India back to Glasgow, the school felt that going into the Higher curriculum was something that they were experienced at, rather than her being parachuted in not long before the Nat 5s. But that was only a matter of months - not the year you would have.

I think Dunblane (don't know about Wallace) does the Curriculum for Excellence "properly" and only starts at the end of S3 with fewer subjects being sat for National 5.

Your dd2 might have more of an issue getting a place at S1. In Shawlands, because it is so international, again, there is quite a lot if movement, so as long as you are in catchment, you should be ok for a place. Until last year, they'd always been able to accept placing requests anyway - but last year I think they were right up at the limit (but with movement, were able to get everyone in). Don't know what the situation is this year.

Support at Shawlands for Additional Learning needs tends to be well supported: it's one of benefits of having a very mixed demographic - which also means that on the face of it it doesn't get the "stellar" exam results that people judge schools by . What it does do is provide added value (getting results above its virtual comparator - which doesn't even take into account the fact that there are 55 languages spoken at the school )and turns out well rounded young people who go off to good Unis and do well It also encourages art, music and sport amongst its young people. (for example, it has a very successful girls rugby team and also netball, gymnastics, basketball...)

Shawlands, Pollokshields, Strathbungo, Newlands are lovely places to live . Dh commuted for 2 years up to Stirling. Access to the motorway (avoiding the Kingston Bridge) is good - but I won't deny that he wasn't delayed on occasion.

@celtie and @celtiethree, the commute gives me some pause, but I won't have to commute every day - 2-3 days per week and flexible hours. Can't get a driving license for at least 6 months, it seems, so initial commute would have to be via train.

I'll add more about the area later as just shooting off to the shops, but the nat 5 thing.... Nat 5s are designed as a 1 year course to be completed in S4. However, in order to allow for more to be sat plus allowing more time to comp let's the course, some schools or councils start then in s3. Dunblane allow 7 by starting slightly early, Aberdeen schools only allow 6 and Glasgow schools usually allow 8 as the y start in S3.

Hi @prettybird Thanks for all the info! I personally like the idea of a broader student base, especially because my DCs come from a different background and I am a sociolinguist by profession . 55 languages - wow!! DD1 is also into sports and DD2 enjoys art and music.

I am concerned about how DD1's education will match up with the Scottish curriculum, but suspect we will have to face those challenges as they come. The notion of starting their higher curriculum at the beginning of June is a concern as well, but can't mitigate that in any way, as my DDs will have to finish school here in Oslo and then travel to the USA for the summer to visit their dad.

I hope that our trip to Glasgow / Stirling next week will bring some clarity, or more confusion?

With a June birthday, I don't think your dd1 has much flexibility as to which year to go into. However the flexibility of the Scottish curriculum means that she could take 2 years to do her Highers and only sit them in S6 - maybe even doing one or 2 at Advanced Higher, if she is capable. It would take away the pressure of having to take the exams in the May of her 1st year in the Scottish system.

But she/you wouldn't have to make that decision straight away - the school would advise.