What is hardest time - national 5s or highers?

[Clarissalarissa]

DD wants to study a couple of subjects that are not available at her school - we are thinking of her doing distance learning for them and taking the exams at an exam centre somewhere. She would either take them as highers or as GCSEs (most likely GCSEs, as I can't find anywhere that offers them as distance learning highers).
She would do this on top of taking the usual 7 or 8 national 5s in S4, and then 5 highers in S5. As 2 year courses.
She is academic and motivated. But I'm wondering when would be the best time to take these extra subjects. Are children more stretched in S4 or in S5? If she wants to continue with 1 or both of these subjects at S6 level (would consider moving school for this), would her having done them a year early, and maybe having done GCSE rather than higher, be likely to cause problems for the new school or at university level? Obviously, she may not want to take one of these subjects at uni level, but is very keen on them at the moment.
Any thoughts welcome.

Sorry Clarissa I was a bit misleading in my post. My DC don’t go school within our Council area- the subject choice all the way through at our catchment school was just too limiting!

PurpleFrog Our catchment school has an enrolment of about 1100 I think. so not terribly small. They used to have a better range of Highers and Advanced Highers but they were slashed in 2010 because of the “economic demographics” of the area and it has very much gone down a vocational route and only offers the basics for Highers/Advanced Highers. In 2014/15 they did expand the range but this year it’s been cut right back again.

It does seem unusual.

Ds' school pretty much offers an AH in every subject - it will vary from year to year, depending on what the pupils themselves want to do. Off the top of my head, I can think of ds and his friends who are currently doing AHs in English, History, Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Graphic Communication ("core" if you are wanting to study Architecture or go to Art School), Modern Studies, French, Spanish.... (and that's just with ds mentioning subjects his friends are doing in passing for example, he's glad he doesn't have to do the reading involved in AH History ) If it doesn't have sufficient numbers or there is a time tabling/resource issue, the pupils will go to the local college for that subject. On occasion I think they have even had pupils from the local private school joining them (and vice versa).

Glasgow City Council also organises an AH Hub at Glasgow Caledonian Uni so that pupils at schools that don't offer enough/the required AHs can go there. (I don't think ds' school is eligible for that scheme as it is expected to be able to offer the AHs itself ).

A friend's ds at an East Ren school is doing an AH in Music (not sure what else he is doing - just know that he's going to Uni to do Music)

The SQA offers c30 AHs (excluding the ones in Gaelic), which would pretty much cover any subject you wanted to do at Uni. Some of the AHs are for subjects you don't need to have done to AH as you can start them at Uni (eg Economics, Statistics, Accountancy)

Not all "good" English Unis require 3 AHs. Oxbridge might - but they are always a special case and they will often customise requirements. I looked up Leeds (as they made me a conditional offer many many moons ago, when I applied direct from S5 didn't go there in the end as I went to my first choice of St Andrews ) and this is what they said for SQA exams (in the attached picture)

On the other hand, even Scottish Unis require 3 good AHs if you want to study subjects like medicine or Veterninary Science. So on that basis, your dd is indeed being disadvantaged - not by the SQA system but by your local school/local authority

Don't be too negative about the opportunities to study abroad - from what I recall about, for example, French education, most continental exam systems don't expect the degree of specialism involved in English A Levels. The French bac is much broader, even though you end up choosing an Arts based or Science based one (which is over simplifying it )

It's also worth looking at wigglebeezer's suggestion of the Open University's Young Applicants courses.

FWIW - I agree with you about the stupidity of stopping Geography at the end of S3 (which is presumably when your dd's school starts its Nat 5 time tabling). It must also be very boring for their Geography teacher(s) Ds got an A for his Geography Higher and in S4 was considering doing a Geography/Geology degree (in S5 he was wanting to do Maths/Physics and in S6 decided on - and had been accepted to do - International Relations the joys of teenagers changing their minds )

I've now found the 2015-2016 booklet PDF and the school offered 18 AHs in that year. That would have been the first year of the revised CfE AHs so is probably a better comparison.

If your school doesn't offer Geography past S3 is that because they don't actually have a suitably qualified teacher? In the lower years, Science teachers, for example may teach all areas of Science, but Higher Physics will only be taught by a qualified Physics teacher.

I'm actually feeling more than a bit cross thinking about schools with limited Highers and advanced Highers, i'm pretty shocked. What are bright kids supposed to do? What about that slogan "getting it right for every child"?

I have actually been wondering for a while if there is a hidden agenda of promoting vocational education (foundation apprenticeships are being heavily promoted at the moment) alongside capping places for Scottish students at home universities due to fee status/ budget requirements. In effect forcing children who might have chosen university 10 or 20 years ago to go down the vocational and or appprenticeship route. Not entirely a bad thing when we need a more skilled workforce but it's being spun as progressive when it will actually restrict choice for children in some areas and effectively some demographics.

I also remember reading about D&G council proposing to make all their High Schools effectively junior high schools and make 5th & 6th years bus in to a central location in Dumfries to a sort of super High School for Highers upwards /college certificates. It did not seem to be popular with locals and I don't know the outcome (read an article in the TESS ages ago), but that would be one solution...

I really am fed up with the lack of honesty about the machinations of Scottish Government departments...in particular the Education Department. Lots of people are unaware that Home students numbers are capped at Scottish universities (effectively meaning our kids have to have more UCAS points than others to get on the same course)...until it's their child getting rejected despite getting results that would have had Universities rolling out the red carpet 20 years ago.

I am very attached to many aspects of our system I don't think A-Levels and three year degrees are always the gold standard but I think we need to keep a careful eye on what's really going on behind the smoke and mirrors. I do think levels of academic achievement seem to have gone down in the later years of primary and early years of high school, perhaps too much emphasis on soft skills and faddy methods in primary?

My kids did not seem to have spelling and maths skills re-inforced in the way I did and ended up with gaps that I had to fill in at home. Luckily, things seem to get more rigorous and demanding in the last three years of high school and bright kids seem to come on in leaps and bounds generally.

That turned into a bit of a rant!

Thing is Wiggly you can't always take everything people say on the internet at face value. I didn't believe what was being said about West Lothian as I used to live in Linlithgow. Sure enough Linlithgow Academy still has 14% of its pupils doing 3 or more AH per the official stats. I would be willing to bet they accommodate pupils from other schools in West Lothian for AHs.

Also different schools / councils have different ways of managing student expectations on this. Our school will not guarantee any AH but the reality is it runs those it has enough interested students for and consortiums the rest. The "good" school in our Council has the full suite of AH in its school handbook but they in fact consort with our school because it has better resources in certain subjects.

Looking again at the school website some of the info on AHs is contradictory. I'll try not to worry about it until I've hopefully managed to get clear info at parents' evening. The OU idea is interesting, though distance learning seems a bit sad for a teenager. Not clear quite what level the courses are at. To what extent pre-uni and to what extent first year uni-level. The language courses go up to B1 (lower intermediate).

Linlithgow is rather an exception!

You may think I am exaggerating and that bothers me not in the slightest. Yes, in theory, if you can convince the school to let you take an AH elsewhere and have it for within your timetable and persuade them to set up a taxi for you, you can go elsewhere for your AH. In practice, it tends to be very difficult and few pupils manage it.

The idea back in 2010 was that our catchment school would send pupils to West Lothian College for gaps in areas that they wanted to study. The last report that I saw had it not working out all that well, and, for example, they were trying to build a partnership with St John’s for students who wanted to go into Medicine (as no AH in the sciences are offered).

Here’s ICH’s AH offering for this year as I stated.

DH went to Whitburn Academy and wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Linlithgow would have been the ultimate dream school for him.

Clarissa if all else fails, geography permitting, there is always the option to transfer to a different school for 5th and 6th year. One of my issues with the current school stats is that the "good" schools all benefit from pupils transferring into them in senior years.

I think that bearing in mind that 6th form here is only 1 year, it is definitely worth looking at any school that is remotely commutable to. It will depend very much on the subjects that DD would if possible like to study at AH level, which are obviously not fixed yet It might also be possible to do 2 AHs at school and one A'level by correspondence course, though I think that would require a lot of self-discipline. I agree that if you are resourceful there are possible ways round this kind of problem. And if she wants to go to a Scottish uni, she could always just leave school at 16 (I do find the idea of going to uni at 16 a little odd, but DD is mature for her age so it might work for her).

Clarissa, the OU courses are SQF level 7, which is the same as AH. Scottish University First Year modules are usually a mixture of Level 7 and level 8.

I was "mature for my age" (St Andrews double-checked with the school before offering and told friends of mine who were equally academic to apply again the following year ) and as I was at the old end of the year, was (exactly) 17.5 when I started, direct from S5. I still struggled for the 1st 6 months to find my feet and not to get upset by teasing (mostly for being naive ). I was fine with the work - it was socially that I found it difficult. It would be even more difficult nowadays, as IDs clearly differentiate those that are under 18, so you are effectively excluded from a large part of the student social life.

It would probably be better for your dd to take a year abroad - in the country of the language she wants to study? - than to go to Uni so young. But only you are really in the position to judge/advise her, as obviously we don't know her.

Might be difficult to spend a year abroad, aged 16. Too young for an aupair job

Op I think you’re missing the crucial detail that Scottish unis are 4 year courses because their first year is academically equal to a levels and advanced highers.

The system is set up for dcs to go from 5th year straight to uni.

The Scottish school system is set up to prepare dcs for Scottish unis.

Would you expect French schools to prepare them for English unis?

This is t anything to do with devolution/ independence / SNP. Education was kept separate from the 19th century.

If you want to go to an English uni from Scotland you are best going to one of the private schools that do a levels.

To be fair on the op, I think she does realise that - but I do agree, she shouldn't blame the SNP for not designing the education system around English Universities.

However, it is perfectly possible to go to English Unis from Scottish state schools: stay on for a 6th year (although even that is not strictly 100% necessary: I was given an offer from Leeds from 5th Year, but I ended up going to my first choice of St Andrews which is effectively an English Uni ) and do Advanced Highers which are the equivalent of A Levels (and grade for grade, actually worth more UCAS points than A Levels).

Ds' (state) school ( not in a leafy suburb) regularly has pupils going to Oxbridge, LSE, UCL, Imperial College, Kings College London in recent years (to name a few off the top of my head). The joint dux last year at his school is now at Oxford studying PPE. (Others have gone off to do medicine, chemical engineering, veterinary science)