What is hardest time - national 5s or highers?

[Clarissalarissa]

DD wants to study a couple of subjects that are not available at her school - we are thinking of her doing distance learning for them and taking the exams at an exam centre somewhere. She would either take them as highers or as GCSEs (most likely GCSEs, as I can't find anywhere that offers them as distance learning highers).
She would do this on top of taking the usual 7 or 8 national 5s in S4, and then 5 highers in S5. As 2 year courses.
She is academic and motivated. But I'm wondering when would be the best time to take these extra subjects. Are children more stretched in S4 or in S5? If she wants to continue with 1 or both of these subjects at S6 level (would consider moving school for this), would her having done them a year early, and maybe having done GCSE rather than higher, be likely to cause problems for the new school or at university level? Obviously, she may not want to take one of these subjects at uni level, but is very keen on them at the moment.
Any thoughts welcome.

We'll see. She doesn't find school at all challenging ATM, and gets almost no homework. The foreign languages and time spent abroad have been a lifesaver.

It does seem that you've been really unfortunate with the school your dd is at

Ds has had varying amounts of homework from S1 onwards - not that much in S1 (but did still have some, especially English, Maths and the two MFLs) but increasing steadily each year thereafter. A lot of the MFL homework was supposed to be self-generated though - "a little and often" was the phrase they used which ds, to my frustration, didn't follow

The school also regularly runs study skills workshops for parents so that they can support their kids in their homework.

Mine get hardly any homework. That is a good thing imo. My parental HW duties ceased some time around P4 and I would not be chuffed if the DC were being encouraged to think it was "my" job rather than their's tbh.

Howabout - I'm totally with you on not doing their homework for them (not sure I even got as far as P4 )

The study skills workshops the school ran were more to support the pupils in the techniques used rather than the homework itself (eg mind maps).

To be fair on ds, he's always just done his homework except for his "little and often" for the MFLs and we as negligent parents have never checked it! or even whether he's done it

I do remember him coming to me in S1 to ask for some specific help on "A Midsummer's Night Dream" which stretched my knowledge as for a variety of reasons I'd only ever studied Hamlet And he had a Science/Physics problem later in the year - but when he got stroppy when it took time for us to re-acquaint ourselves with the subject, we told him that in future he would just have to get it wrong and the teacher would then advise him! (Although I did then manage to get hold of the Science book they were following in class which was no mean feat so that we he could work put what was wanted)

Ah, pretty much same approach as us then pretty

I don't think I've ever helped with homework. Half the point of it Is the children learning study and organisational skills.
I believe in all pupils being appropriately challenged, which should mean different things for different children. I don't think that absolute equality of outcome is a desirable ambition
This puts me at odds with the SNP I think.
I do think that children who struggle with academics should receive most help, but not that other children should be held back.

I don't think that absolute equality of outcome is a desirable ambition^^
This puts me at odds with the SNP I think.^

You see, this is where I disagree with you. My experience of CfE is that every child is expected to be appropriately challenged - and at ds' school, they are . Hence the school getting a high "value added" score (ie getting better results than a statistical analysis of its demographic would suggest) - but it works bloody hard to achieve that.

However, it does appear that your dd is being badly served by her school - although I don't think that it is representative of schools across Scotland, nor of SNP policy.

In fact, one of the really annoying acronyms that is used in education (and social work?) is "GIRFEC" - " Getting It Right For Every Child". There is another one "HIGIOS" ("How Good Is Our School?" - I think they are now onto HIGIOS4), one of the key strands of which is how much value is added to all pupils - and what is the school's action plan to improve that.

Howabout - you and I might disagree fundamentally on a lot of things , but we usually agree on education

I'm sure in real life we would actually be friends as long as we avoided certain topics

We had a talk with a picture of 3 boys watching a football game which is happening on the other side of a fence. Boy 1 is tall and can see over the fence. Boy 2 is medium sized and stands on something and can see over the fence. Boy 3 is short and stands on something high and can see over the fence. Which is fine if all that is needed is to watch a football game. But doesn't stretch the able, which is not great for society either. Good that your schools are different.

Small confession to make. DD1 was indignant when she told me she passed her Maths test and I said "oh did you have a test?". She also protested that she actually gets an Ftonne (still under discussion with her Dad whether that is US, UK or metric measure) of HW - I don't think it counts if you can finish it in class and in the odd half hour before tea when you are trying to avoid whatever it is your DM is nagging about.

The whole point of CoE (as I have experienced it with my 3) is about individual challenge, even if the biggest gains are to be had at the bottom end - my lot don't need stretching because as is common with most able DC I know they are very good at challenging themselves. The reason I am not a big fan of HW and instituted "challenge" is that ime it is very effective at driving out self challenge in the more able.

I also think you are missing the point in the football fable Clarissa. If the short boy can't even see over the fence he is very unlikely to aspire to watch let alone play football. The tall boy starts off with all the tools to get on with it and just needs to be pointed in the right direction.

That particular analogy you've described (3 boys) is demonstrating equity rather than equality. The three boys need different levels of support to watch the game. It hasn't got anything to do with stretching the able.

Out of interest, how old is your daughter now?

Howabout - I did actually remember to ask ds how he got on with his AH Maths NAB (he passed it ).

He's also going to go to Supported Study after school today (for the first time ever must really want to get into Edinburgh ) and miss rugby training on Saturday to go to the morning study session (although a game would have had priority ). But he is indignant on "equalities' behalf" and the work that the teachers do to close the attainment gap as those that need it least (ie motivated, middle class kids like him) are the ones who are more likely to go

The ability to be self-starting is an important one - there is an argument that pupils in East Renfrewshire have a higher drop out rate at Uni despite their good SQA results because they are too spoon fed I know ds emphasised in his UCAS personal statement not just his interest in the subject he was applying for but that he could demonstrate how he would cope with university life and being responsible for his own work and studying.

The 3 boys picture demonstrates the principle of equality of outcome, which the school told us the SNP is keen on and the school is aiming for. All 3 boys have the same outcome - succeeding in watching the football game. The short boy needs lots of help to get there, the tall boy needs no help.
In the school context, I interpret this as meaning:
The school/SNP would like all 3 boys to achieve a basic educational level. The bright boy doesn't need any support to get there - can be given a chair and desk in class and be left to get on with it. The least bright boy needs and is given a lot of support by the school. Both boys end up having achieved a basic education (that's the aim anyway).
My preferred model is the 2 boys being put, for at least some subjects, into different ability groups. The teachers can then use teaching techniques which are appropriate to each group (rather than focusing all lessons towards the less academically able), and the more academic group can work at a faster speed, and reach a higher level than the less academic group. This does not result in equality of outcome, but results in a better level of education overall, which is useful as every country needs people who know a lot/ can do a lot to make a success of the more intellectually difficult jobs. It also means that the more academic children enjoy school more and work harder, rather than learning to coast and be bored, because the work is slow and easy.
Needless to say, the 2 boys may well not be simply "bright" and "not bright". They may both be good at some subjects and bad or average at others. The different ability sets in each subject cater for that.
I appreciate that your schools have some level of ability setting, unlike ours.
From the sound of it OP's school uses this, and is perhaps a grammar school - where effectively only the top set, or the top half of the top set, will be in the school at all. They will then go through further ability setting.
Some people say that children only need to learn a certain amount at school - to cover the curriculum / to get into a good uni. I don't see it that way. I think that every child should be stretched a little at school. It's not just about learning the essentials - it's about achieving children's potential / encouraging a love of learning.
And not all DCs are so motivated that they will work hard without any encouragement. It's also quite difficult to work hard if you're in a class where what you are being taught is very easy to you. You will probably not be allowed to sit in the corner on your own doing something completely different, at your level.

As I've said before Clarrissa , it does seem that you have been unfortunate with your dd's school, as its lack of aspiration seems to be unlike my (or rather, ds' experience), nor that of any of my friends

And this is in inner city Glasgow (in ds' case) as well as leafy East Renfrewshire, leafy East Dunbartonshire and rural Stirlingshire (friends' children). Ds used to cycle competitively, so I used to have to spend whole days at meets all over Scotland had plenty of time to get to know other parents from all over Scotland.

But a wee correction about one of the comments in your post (although it is confusing, as you mention the "OP" - and you are the OP ):

There are no grammar schools in Scotland and there haven't been for 40 years!

You will probably not be allowed to sit in the corner on your own doing something completely different, at your level

At ds' school, one of his friends was indeed sitting in the corner doing something completely different: he sat all his Maths exams a year ahead of his classmates (so sat AH Maths last year in S5). This despite the fact that the top set Maths class he was in was already consistently working months ahead of "schedule" (eg last year they started AH Maths topics in, iirc, January last year, 4 months before they sat their Higher Maths).

His scary English teacher was stretching the whole class from early in S1 (when they were set into her class) as she said it was a very able cohort and it was her duty to get the most out of them. He had the same teacher all the way through to his Nat 5s - and she pushed them hard throughout. (Different teacher in S5 - but she had equally high expectations)

I will admit we had a problem with one of ds' science subjects early in S4 (because of the unusual combination of subjects he was taking, the class he was in for that subject there were two classes in that subject, timetabled at different times was much more "mixed" and he was indeed getting bored ) Raised it with the school and it was immediately addressed as that was not acceptable to them.

While I would like to think that ds' school is exceptional (And I know it is the head teacher's aspiration to be the "best school in Scotland" ) - it is not that exceptional I can think of a number of schools that are nearly as good

Sorry, the grammar school point was a mix up with a different thread. Relating to a DC moving from England to Scotland.
Very glad that you are happy with your schools. Ours appears to be ideologically driven
On a different point, can I ask how you communicate with your high school? With ours, the only contact point is filling in an enquiry form on the website, or calling reception. Parents are not given direct email addresses for any of the teachers. I have had to write to the school a couple of times about major things, and they don't respond. Is this the norm?

In the past I've emailed his pastoral care teacher or the year head (there is a format to the emails that you can work out) and they have got back to me within a day. In nearly 6 years, I've only had to do that a couple of times (once to warn of an event at home which might impact on his behaviour at school, another was about a mistake in the school report which was quickly sorted). There are some generic emails on written correspondence and the cover note to the school report. I think the contact system might be changing though with the school becoming one of the digital schools being rolled out in Glasgow.

The teaching issue I mentioned in my earlier post was raised at a parents' evening (we'd been unimpressed with the the teacher's initial response and when the head teacher asked us how things were, we said we were wondering who to raise an issue with: the pastoral care teacher or the Head of Year and the reply was, "Me") and ds said it was sorted in class the following day.

Both dh and I always been involved with ds' schools, both primary and secondary, with things like PTA/School Board/Parent Council/Careers Evenings/Social Events/Sport, which does help in getting to know their Senior Management Teams.

I do know that one of the other Scottish MNers, at a school in a "nice" area with a good reputation, has tried to raise issues with her sons' school and not been happy with their communication with her .

Ds is in S6 so there is now less reason to communicate with the school. I take the view that he could be at Uni so I'm not going to nag him about attendance (which is fine except when there are non-subject-appropriate supply teachers so really just child minders in which case he walks out and comes home to study for himself). Another quirk of Scottish schooling is that once he turned 16, he could sign his own permission slips! (and because I no longer need to fill in forms during the breakfast rush )

Someone asked whether I'd talked to the school about exam subject options. And it seems bizarre to me that the only way I can think of to ask the school about this is to wait until parents' evening, which is once a year. I have only ever emailed them about things which absolutely necessitated an email. When they didn't respond I just had to assume that the answer was the one I had hoped for and acted accordingly. But I actually didn't even know whether my email had been forwarded to the relevant member of staff or not.

We have a Parent Information Evening in mid January (which was apparently very similar to the School Assembly on the same topic) for the S2s & S4s and their parents, explaining the choices, columns and routes through to Nat 4s or 5s and then on to Highers.

It is combined with a Careers Event which the Parent Council helps organise (the S2s & their parents get their talk while the S4s go round the representatives from a selection of possible careers and/or local Unis/colleges/apprentice providers, then they swap over).

The Senior Management Team are very visible at this (and at Parents' Evenings) and Pastoral Care teachers are also there - and at the Parents' Evenings.

The pupils make their choices in S2, to allow the school to present pupils for 8 Nat 5s (those that are capable, of course) and they start their S3 timetable at the beginning of June (which iirc takes them through to their exams in S4).

There is an S2 Parents Evening about now (was supposed to be last week but got postponed because of the snow) so that parents get a chance to talk to their kids' subject teachers (ds' Modern Studies teacher was really disappointed to be told in S2 that ds wasn't going to do a Nat 5 - but he got him back in S6 for a crash Higher ) before they finalise their choices.

But there are also two school reports sent out over the school year: an interim one with less detail and a detailed one later in the year - which also have space for/expect a response and where you can ask any questions. The booking system for the parents' evening also has the opportunity to ask any specific questions in advance with each teacher with which you make an appointment.

It must be frustrating for you if you never get a response. As someone once said to dh, "A message is not a message until it has been received and acknowledged"

Not really sure what to suggest to you: join the Parent Council and get to know the SMT? Although the Parent Council itself will not get involved in individual cases, it does have a wider role of discussing school policy (so things like setting and encouraging that a policy of "equal stretching" rather than "rounding down" would come into that), as well as communication, response times and representing the wider Parent Forum. It also provides the opportunity to get to know the head teacher and his/her challenges.

If I need to contact the school outside normal parents' evening the process is to go via the school office to set up an appointment with the appropriate contact.

The DC also have a guidance teacher and anything which can be dealt with by note goes via them.

For the most part I have encouraged my older 2 (S4 and S5) to self-advocate with the backstop of me getting involved if I have to which I generally don't.

When they did their subject choices at the end of S2 there were parent info evenings prior to the paperwork and parents were invited to come to the pupil / teacher meeting if they had questions (although DD1's teacher did point out she wouldn't be providing tea and cake and there was no obligation if I was happy my DD knew what she was doing ).

My lot are quite involved in the extra curricular life of the school so having attended all the various events where I am required to cheer them on I know loads of the teachers to chat to anyway.

Thank you for this. Seems that not having contact details for anyone is the norm here then. It would be nice to be able to send a very occasional email - arranging an appointment with someone would usually be overkill - just need a yes or no answer.

Clarissa Are you in West Lothian? Your description of your school is similar to many of the schools here- particularly the only having three AHs on offer which is the number offered at our catchment school (English, Maths and Graphic Communications).

At DC’s school we do have the individual teacher’s email addresses and for a specific issue I would email them directly but for wider curriculum issues I would contact the head of department or one of the year heads

My posts are already way over-identifying! I do envy you the English and maths AHs - at least that gives you 2 core subjects. But it's sad that I'm saying I envy you for having 3 AHs available, one of them not being at all core (never heard of graphic communications). At English schools it is standard for children to have a very large number of A'levels open to them. All the more so if they go to the local 6th form college. It would be inconceivable that a child could not take maths or English at A'level, as appears to be the case for us.
At our local high school you can only take geography (a core subject, which opens up many careers at a higher level) up to S3. All those children are really being let down, and so is Scotland in my view. There could be a potential top geography-minded person among those pupils. Who will be forced to give the subject up aged 14.
Also - what is the point of insisting that Scottish teachers have a degree in their subject if they are not going to be teaching it at a high level? Seems a waste.
HIghers are not the academic equivalent of A'levels. That's why good English universities ask Scottish applicants for 3 AHs. it's also obvious if you just take a look at a higher exam and a look at a same subject A'level paper. Before coming to Scotland I didn't realise that schools in practice don't offer many AHs. And schools are too far apart here for the children to be able to pop into a next door school to study a different subject.
Feeling dejected, as I don't think that DC would be able to get into a continental uni, even assuming she has advanced skills in the language, without AHs. Lots of doors are closing for her.

I must admit I'm a bit surprised by this. Is it a really small school? Our local High School was offering AHs in 15 different subjects in 2014/15. (That was the only "Pathway Options" handbook I have to hand on my work computer.)

What year is your daughter in at the moment?

16 subjects here too in a semi-rural school. Its definitely not ideal to limit choice in sixth year, there is not much chance these days to pick up extra exam passes at FE college either, if you need to fill in gaps later (been looking into this for DS1), they shovel you towards subject specific access courses which don't have certificates at the end, fine if you want to carry on at college but not if you just want an extra pass in something for UCAS points.

Does your school offer the Open University Young Applicants courses, they are the equivalent of Advanced highers and offer languages.
There is also a private college in Edinburgh where you can sit exams as an outside candidate.
I have a few guesses about the area the OP is in but I won't speculate for the sake of her privacy.