What's going wrong with Scottish education??

[TinfoilHattie]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39856284

Obviously very tempting to start another SNP bashing thread and I'm pretty clear that the blame for this lies at their door. It's shocking that performance is getting worst, not better and that less than half of S2s are performing well or very well in writing. It's all very well Swinney standing up and saying that it's not good enough but WHY is it not good enough and WHAT is he going to do about it?

Is it Curriculum for Excellence? Are the tests unrealistic? Funding? Changing expectations?

It's all very interesting for me as I have children in P4, P7 and S2 and those are the years which are tested. My kids are doing fine and I have no worries about them, but we're a family which values education and encourages reading. I do worry though about my daughter who spelled her new school as "Acadmay" and it wasn't corrected by the teacher.

So what's going wrong and how do we put it right?

So there are at least some schools that are not teaching joined up / cursive writing, with children leaving primary still printing individual letters. Does anyone know why that is? Are parents happy with that?

celtie very much depends where his other strengths are and what he wants to study. Bear in mind that there is limited advantage to Highers taken early or even late as most Unis seem to still focus on the 5 taken in 5th year.

For comparison a Grade 8 distinction in one instrument gives roughly the same UCAS points as an A in Higher Music.

If I'm not happy with the school about an issue that is specific about my ds, I take it up with the school. I have done so on 3 occasions over a 12 year (to date) schooling period. On each time it was quickly resolved.

I get involved with the school Parent Council, so that if there are generic issues to be discussed, the Parent Forum has a voice.

I respond to Government & Council consultations on issues pertaining to education (eg EAL, ASN, catchment areas, governance, role of Parent councils). I complete official surveys.

I am happy with the education I have encountered. Yes, there are areas it could be better. No system is perfect and it is only by getting involved that you can contribute to improvements.

CfE is a nightmare and we are failing our children. I think the biggest problem is at the heart there is a contradiction.
On one hand - greater choice for the children but on the other hand there are certain expectations of what they are supposed to learn . And lots of box ticking needing to be done - I spoke to a teacher who said that at their current school (a good school) when they are inspected they are likely to get marked down over things like lesson planning. At their previous school they had a perfect planning folder, meeting all the recommendations (and think about that - it is a child led learning yet needing a meticulous planning folder....) - anyway the folder sat untouched in the HTs office - whilst at her current school if her planning folder went astray she would be lost -as it is actually used and useful - but doesn't meet the requirements.
Also she said that they have been told every teacher needs to know (learn) the content in detail of some guidelines - literally hundreds of pages long with lots of jargon. It is the kind of thing that the HT should know (and in her case does) and be able to direct the staff to follow...but that isn't good enough. So at their teacher meetings they are spending the first 30 mins or so working through and learning these guidelines so they can spout them back to an inspector.
Also too much use of 'systems' - bought packages with resources and methodologies - for both literacy and numeracy. These tend to be based on a method of learning that works for the majority of children. But will fail some and these will be missed as there is no other way - as everything is based on the 'system' throughout a primary school.

It is absolutely no surprise that the attainment gap is widening - as someone else said up thread - child led learning is much better if they are getting a wide ranging experience outside school. If they don't they can't possibly get as much out. Also the more confident children will be more able to push their interests than the quieter ones - in a class of 30 children not all the children will have the same amount of interest in the same things.
Also that there is such a difference between the number of Nat 5s children can take depending on the school... and often in order to do more than 5 children are being made to make choices at the end of S2 as they then have to start the Nat 5 courses in S3 - when they should still be getting a 'broad education'.
And the broad education is so prescribed -they have to have so many hours of each subject - it can be barely fitted into a normal school day. And there is a lack of teachers who can teach these subjects. So something like 'business studies' can turn into a waste of time messing about on You tube.
And things like home economics -I think it is important that they are taught to cook and basic food hygiene - but do they really need to have so many hours over so many years? Lets face it - healthy eating is overdone in primary school anyway (and usually outdated) - I refuse to believe any child by S1 doesn't know what is healthy or not. They would be much better concentrating on hands on useful cooking for a few hours a week for 6 months.

And this is all going to get worse...
Look what is happening in Early Years - children are not allowed to be 'directed' - so if a child comes into Nursery every day and plays on the climbing frame they are not supposed to be directed to try something else - say the Craft area. (And if the child comes from a background where they have never been given the opportunity to do any craft they may not think to try it) They are not allowed to have topic weeks - eg a colour table - it is too prescribed. They are not allowed circle time - or to have a story time....they don't need to ever go near a book unless they choose to. And yet at the end of their time at Nursery there is a list of things they are supposed to have learned.
And this freedom of choice (which is relatively new to this extent in the scheme of CfE) is starting to impact on P1/2 -where children are surprised that they are told what to do and expected to do it - after all they might not feel like learning the letter sound just then, when they would prefer to play with the sand... And god knows what effect that will have on classroom behaviour going up the school.
I was talking to someone from Education Scotland the other day - said I thought CfE was a mess and needed to be sorted out -and they agreed then stopped themselves and said 'that's political'.
Honestly I don't care about the politics as much as I care about what is happening to our children ...and it is worse for children from deprived backgrounds. I believe that children with 'keen' and able parents will always be ok - the one's without involved parents (for what ever reason) are the ones that will suffer most.
Sorry a massive long rant - something I feel really strongly about. It is a massive badly thought out and implemented fuck up - and it makes my blood boil.

No need to apologise.

You have just covered the bases! I have the same range of concerns.The nursery approach will only entrench the attainment gap.

Well, I do not recognise my former nursery... They did have story time, "week topics", "group" time and so on.
Said that my DD2 did NOT enjoy the freedom to do whatever she liked as she much preferred to be directed towards an activity rather than be told, "do whatever you like". She found that rather overwhelming and she would end up doing nothing. She enjoys school much more.

arkadia - how long ago was that? I said this is the direction Early years is going in -it is relatively new - being pushed over the last two years or so.
If your nursery was doing that now (and providing funded places) they would be pulled up on inspection - by Education Scotland and the Care commission - they would be downgraded.

(I could start on the push to natural materials - replace plastic boxes with wicker ones and metal buckets etc in sand/water pits...
At one point storage tubs had to be sanitised - cleaned with antibac stuff - on a regular basis as part of a cleaning rota. How do you sanitise a wicker basket? If it is about reducing use of plastic for the environment it just doesn't make sense to replace perfectly good plastic things ...
Or too much children's artwork displayed - it is overstimulating and too regulated

then it was too little...
now it is back to too much....
And it can't be directed - so the old favourite of drawing a big tree trunk and branches on a large sheet of paper and providing children with autumnal colours to use to make falling leaves out of handprints or using leaves to print - frowned on. Even if they only add to it if and when they want to ...because you have provided the structure and restricted the colours....)

My DD2 is P1 now, so pretty recent.
(And they did do artwork with leaves etc. Also we were encouraged to take to school scrap carton/plastic etc for arts and crafts).
Ah, it is a council nursery.

i found out that they do assessments at DD's primary, but they have a policy of not sharing the results (a good policy it seems as it's the end of P2 and this is the first time I've heard about it, and it was because I specifically asked if they had done any this year).

Fundamentally, this is a terrible policy imo - I've got no idea on the spectrum of 'fine' what my DD needs backup at home with, I feel like I'm fishing in the dark.

I don't mind the starting Nat5 work in S3. DS is doing 8 Nat 5's so they start them in S3, but he also has three other "topic" classes that aren't exam based so he's still getting a pretty broad curriculum. I'd far rather that than another general year of how ever many classes then only doing 6 Nat 5's in S4.

ark they are doing that in school -council run - nurseries now ... wondering when the one your DC went to was last inspected...and what they are doing this year?
I have a friend whose child is at school nursery this year and she was teaching them to ask for a story! Once the 'teachers' start reading one lots of other children will gather round to listen but they can't introduce it or have a set story time...a set anything. (And I know some settings are (rightly imo) ignoring this).
They are encouraged to have IT in nurseries - tablets/laptops. They used to have to have a timer so a child could only spend a limited time on them but I know one setting where that has been questioned - it isn't allowing freedom of movement.

And there is 'pick up from play' -instead of gathering the children together at home time to be collected from a group (thereby wasting learning time and directing the children) the parents go into the setting and collect them from where they are playing - inside or out. Which apparently is chaos -with some children not wanting to be taken away from their game and really hard to keep track of who is collecting who - a member of staff has to basically guard the exit to make sure the children leave with the right adult and that children aren't escaping by themselves -which takes them away from watching the children who are still there.

Actually someone who works in Early years was telling me recently and they have been encouraged to provide more 'real life' objects rather than toys....and their accident book is filling up rapidly.
Even with a better ratio than the accepted minimum of one adult to 10 three yos because they are all allowed to go anywhere in the setting (inside and out) it is harder to keep an eye on them all anyway. And if one hits another with a 'real life' object it is more likely to end up needing a cold compress and to end up in the accident book - so far nothing serious just bumps and bruises. They aren't being given knives or anything - nothing really dangerous -just things that are harder/sharper - metal or wood rather than foam etc.
And the money isn't there to provide more staff (and treating the injured child takes up the attention of a member of staff).

"They are encouraged to have IT in nurseries - tablets/laptops. They used to have to have a timer so a child could only spend a limited time on them but I know one setting where that has been questioned - it isn't allowing freedom of movement. "

OMG--seriously!? They have electronic devices in the room but no authority for limiting children's use? How on earth can they justify this?

I suspect that a lot of this is a misapplied romanticism about being "natural." Based perhaps on ideas about "traditional" societies where children over about 2.5 spend a lot of time in groups without adults hanging around, and they just learn social and practical skills naturally.

I've traveled in some very traditional parts of the world and this sort of setup works okay, mostly--in these societies. But that's because we are talking about a massive age range, with kids from around 2.5 right up to about 15yo all hanging around, and the older ones supervising the younger ones and showing them how to do things. You can't corral a bunch of 2-4yos together and expect things to work in the same way. They are unlikely to learn much from each other.

I used to teach in a nursery many moons ago and we used to ensure the children knew numbers to 10, letters of the alphabet and were able to take off and put on coats etc before they went to school.

Now our P1 teachers complain that there are children who have had 2 years of "nursery" who can't sit down, listen, change clothes, have no idea how to hold a pencil.......... the list goes on and on and on.

Nursery provision is very patchy. It is doing nothing for the attainment gap, because unsurprisingly, the attainment gap affects the quality of children's play! 'Play' seems to be the current cure-all but the powers that be aren't taking into account that if a child isn't read to at home, doesn't see writing and is plonked in front of Ben10 all day long, they won't naturally write a 'story', make tickets for the puppet theatre etc etc.

There seems to be a move towards play based P1s, which is admirable in some ways, but I fear it is being done on the cheap.

Nursery ratios are, what, 1:8? and it's still chaos. How can that be done 1: 25?!

For 3+, ratios are 1:10 for a session of under 4 hours, 1:8 for over 4 hours. So a lot of pre-schools where children attend morning or afternoon will be 1:10.

The whole child-led thing is a nightmare - it's the same for after school clubs. We have parents who desperately want us to make their children do their homework in club time and we can't - we can make a homework space and equipment available, have a member of staff available to help, but that's it.

Ah one of my bugbears about ASCs, as a working parent it drives me crackers because dd can't do homework at 6, she's beat - so that's due to governing rules that they can't just set a homework time from 4-420 like I had when I was at school?

Wow...

Yup - any after school club who had an enforced homework time would get their arse kicked at inspection time IME. Child led is the absolute focus. Even fun activities, we can offer them but anything other than very light encouragement is frowned upon.

How has this happened? Where has the SNP got these ideas from, and why don't they consult with the people on the ground?

I think the parents have to assume some responsibiy.
Dd1 is just going into S3. The stories she tells about her classmates are telling. "X mum took her out to lunch and then she didn't come back in the afternoon" " out of our class ( of 20) only 7 of us did our homework " etc etc . I don't think it's necessarily the teachers letting kids down , it's the parents in a lot of cases. I went to private school for secondary and decided against it for my kids. But dd is doing really well at her local secondary, and she sees that a lot of the kids are let down by their parents rather than the system. I'm not sure you can blame the Scottish government for all the defects in children's education

Children do their homework if there are good systems in place.
Where the school gives the message that working hard doesn't matter, children and parents don't take work seriously.
And if half the class is doing badly, it affects the progress of the whole class.
I don't think it helps that Scottish schools only compare themselves with other Scottish schools - they should do UK wide comparisons.

Homework for primary age DC is educationally ineffective according to the research. It also obviously widens the attainment gap between those with supportive home environments and those without.

The main objective of HW is to aid parental involvement. Allowing a HW hour in after school clubs would not do that.

My P1 DD3 brought her Homelink jotter back with her for us to look through over the holidays. I can now tell exactly where she is on reading, writing, sums and time telling. There is also a whole host of other information and evidence on what she is doing at school. I think this is fairly standard and a whole lot more effective than HW.

My older DCs' secondary school does have HW clubs and supported study and again I think this is fairly standard.

Whistler on a UK wide basis according to PISA Scotland and England are doing the same as each other. The argument is over the perception that Scotland is no longer superior. The difference has never been statistically significant in the context of the testing - see earlier article.

I know that we are supposed to vilify England and the way things happen there. I am equally aware that the school attendance thing has got out of hand there with permission being denied to attend funerals etc (my information comes from on here, BTW, these stories may not be true).

However, I am a teacher in Scotland and absences from class are a huge issue. Alarms are only sounded (very quietly, and very gently) when attendance drops below 80% (I day a week off, on average). At the end of term we have mass absences for days at a time. Holidays are often taken either side of official holidays. We have families who take 2 weeks off every year at the same time and it has become so ingrained that questioning them is now impossible.

I teach up to the bitter end every term. There is always more they can do. I don't put on films (unless teaching them - Engiish teacher) and I don't stop setting homework etc. A few colleagues do, but are robustly discouraged from doing so and it is getting better.

So, what do we do? Kids have been absent recently for the following reasons:

Work experience - 2 weeks in an animal sanctuary. Could have been done in the holidays but, "That's the holiday".

Holidays to European cities, sometimes dressed up as "family occasions"
Package holidays
Pop concerts (anything mid week needs 2-3 days off school because of our location).
Disney trips.

Birthdays - oh yes, lots don't do school on their birthdays.

This may just be my school but (anecdotally) it isn't. So, while I yield to no-one in my condemnation of the curriculum or the exam system, there are other issues that need to be addressed too. There needs to be policy in place to allow schools to crack down a bit more on this. The only threat we have at the moment is "This will be unauthorised and might go on your record if someone wants a reference." Like they care!

homework could be many things though - it could be reading a book by themselves, playing sum games, etc. It's interesting howabout that you look at your DD's work and feel you understand how she's doing - I look at it and I've got no context for what it means in a broader sense.

In fact, I've found when we've gone over school work at home, it's made DD massively more confident - she's not a very confident child. I appreciate homework may not help for many of course.

The fact that my DD can do some addition and some writing - doesn't really tell me about whether she's maximizing her individual achievement or how that tracks against other pupils.

In theory yes, parents would do the homework but for ft working parents that's often a real struggle to pick up, sort dinner, chat about the day and do homework before a reasonable bed time.

Hamlet - in my experience the teacher that teaches right up to the bitter end is rare. For years my DS have been at school until the last day where they have had no work in class and certainly no homework. A the end of one term poor DS2 had the same film put on in different classes, and also not age appropriate but that is a different discussion.

I now have no qualms about taking my DC out of school before the end of term and often do to take advantage to get away before fares jump in price.

That said I wouldn't take my DC out of school for a week in the middle of the school year.

I would hate for Scotland to go down the route that England has taken re fines but recognise that there is probably a middle ground that should be struck.