What's going wrong with Scottish education??

[TinfoilHattie]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39856284

Obviously very tempting to start another SNP bashing thread and I'm pretty clear that the blame for this lies at their door. It's shocking that performance is getting worst, not better and that less than half of S2s are performing well or very well in writing. It's all very well Swinney standing up and saying that it's not good enough but WHY is it not good enough and WHAT is he going to do about it?

Is it Curriculum for Excellence? Are the tests unrealistic? Funding? Changing expectations?

It's all very interesting for me as I have children in P4, P7 and S2 and those are the years which are tested. My kids are doing fine and I have no worries about them, but we're a family which values education and encourages reading. I do worry though about my daughter who spelled her new school as "Acadmay" and it wasn't corrected by the teacher.

So what's going wrong and how do we put it right?

I'm going to assume that dd was exaggerating about s2 kids not using joined up writing. Surely no primary school would allow that to be the norm. I'll have a look at the wall displays next time I'm in the school, just in case.
I suspect that plenty of middle class schools, and private schools, benefit from the use of private tutors. That makes it easy for those schools to come across as better than they really are.

I've found that everyone doesn't have the normal meaning to teenage girls...

It varies from, none but I'm hoping on convince you it's everyone through to two people next to me because the rest of the class don't count because I do my best to ignore thsm...depending on what they or you are asking about, lol

On a serious note though, if you're getting so little information from a school that you're having to try and work out what it's like from a pupil, that's not great tbh...

Firstly just because obviously it's showing a problem with communicating with parents, but also because you're never going to get an accurate gauge.

No tradition of tutoring at ds' school. But I'm happy to admit that we'd have been prepared to get a tutor for ds if we'd felt the need (after all, we're saving so much money by not going private )

I did have a concern about one subject a few years but a) we took it up with the school and the situation improved immediately and b) we got dh's nephew (who is Head of Department in the subject at another school) to spend an hour with ds and he confirmed that he was on course in the subject. He was right as ds got an A for his Nat 5 in the subject and should get an A for his Higher

So his good results (and those of his class mates) are all down to his own efforts and the teaching at his not middle class school

As an aside, dh has a habit of printing (something he apparently picked up from his boss in the 80s). He thinks it makes it easier for others to read - and he finds it faster to write . Personally, I find his handwriting difficult to read, whereas my "fast" scrawl handwriting might not look as pretty but is actually quite legible (according to those that had to read it once you got used to the n sometimes looking like an r or vice versa )

whistlerx I have two kids gone through the Primary system in Scotland and neither was taught cursive. When they had done some at the other school they attended for 6m they were then actually stopped from using it at School when they returned.

Very true about teenage girls tabul . My 2 are also incredibly good at ignoring their own shortcomings while pointing out their minor irritations with others, especially teachers and fellow classmates.

Can I just clarify something: by "cursive" are we simply meaning "joined up" writing (which might be a progression from simple letters gradually joined together with "ticks") or are we meaning the fully cursive writing that some countries (like France) teach from the start?

We might be talking at cross-purposes.

Depends on the school...so more just joined up than a specific one, but some schools do indeed teach that.

What do parents think about the level of the exams here? Do you think that the grades are set at the right level, so that it's hard to get an A, for instance?
In England (just by way of comparison) the old F to A (with C to A counting as proper pass grades) are going, and being replaced by 1 to 9 grades. The equivalent of A will I think be around 7 to 8. So the 9 grade, and poss also the 8 grade, will be above what is currently the highest grade, so fewer children will now get a top grade. I think this is aimed at helping top universities to find the top pupils. A lot of people were getting As. And to stretch the brightest to achieve more.
The exams are also becoming more difficult. Because of that, a lot of schools have reduced the number of GCSEs that pupils take. So maybe cutting from 11 to 9.

We're in West Lothian and neither DC was taught cursive while at school there. We moved both to an Edinburgh day school for P7 and while they do use cursive (they call it "joined up") writing there, there was no expectation that the P7s would already know how to do it when they joined the class. The new P7s mostly come from a range of Edinburgh schools so I wouldn't say it's across the board that cursive is taught in primary school here.

Mine all learnt cursive from P3, however, Ds1 regressed at high school from quite neat cursive to a half print half cursive scrawl ( he is left handed though) and the teachers don't seem to mind as long as it's legible.
They seem to learn cursive earlier nowadays than they did in the seventies, judging by the old jotters of mine my mother kept. I do remember an English teacher in S2 teaching us a rather attractive cursive style as she felt it was important for presentation.
I must admit to sixth form college envy, would have suited DS1 better, it's difficult to do a mixture of academic subjects and vocational subjects at FE college and the pastoral support is poor. However they are too expensive with a spread out population and terrible public transport outside cities.

I have already linked to the UCAS tariff calculator (but here it is again www.ucas.com/ucas/tariff-calculator). UCAS presumably doesn't have an axe to grind and rates the gradings of the Scottish exams highly - with a Higher worth more than an AS level and an Advanced Higher at A worth the same as an A* A level and an AH Level at B worth the same as an A Level at A.

Can't comment directly on the equivalent bandings for Nat 5s versus GCSEs as there isn't the same obsession with Nat 5s as a measure as there is with GCSEs. Maybe because schools aren't measured by them. It's also worth remembering that when CfE came in, it was anticipated that the more able students would bypass Nat 5s and work straight through to Highers. In practice most schools ignored that, as it was felt (and I agree) that it was too dangerous to make the first "important" exams that pupils sit, the ones that will determine their future academic pathway. The one school that I know of that did do that has since stopped and their pupils sit Nat 5s like everywhere else.

We still do early Higher at my school. Many sit none, most sit at least one, and a few sit 4 in S4. Pupils do very well and it means that, for example, DS has 8 Highers and 5 AH after S6 (well, should do when results come in) because he did some earlier. So, he gets breadth and depth. Some departments (languages, Music) get nearly all A grades with Highers in S4. We only do it if pupils are likely to get a top grade. Those scraping a C are encouraged to do N5 and give themselves another year.

I never learned cursive writing at school and have never thought of myself as laboriously printing each letter.

We teach joins from P3 but I wouldn't say it's the same as true cursive which was taught right from the start when I taught in England. I found it very difficult to teach letters as they had lead ins, loops and goodness knows whatever, but didn't see these in print iykwim.

That's interesting HamletsSister.

Ds' school doesn't do that - there was only one boy as far as I know on ds' year who sat Maths a year "ahead", but he still went through the Nat 5, Higher, AH progression (so in S3, S4 and S5 respectively).

The school does however offer 8 Nat 5s as a matter of course (and some also get a Nat 4 in RME just through their core periods) (I haven't worked out if some also get a Nat 4 in PE through their core periods - ds was doing it as a Nat 5 anyway so it didn't apply).

My dc school offers music early if dc have 2 instruments at the right level - dd2 just sat Nat5 in S2 and will do Higher in S3. It does involve extra theory work one lunchtime a week as well. It gives her one more space to do more highers in S5.

That's interesting Weegiemum, I've been having real problems fitting in the subject choices for DC2. I've been trying to get the school to be creative re how to fit in music as he is playing at AH level. They need to get up to speed on theory but they will not present early so we are stuck in the process until S6!!!

If they don't teach "cursive", what do they teach? Is the writing joined up? Or does the child leave a small gap between letters?

celtie depending on why your DC wants music qualifications it could make more sense to use the ABRSM / Trinity route - DD2's peri teacher facilitates this? DD1 is doing the performance unit of Higher in one of her instruments through her school peri teacher - she is S4. Music is very much a hobby for mine so the exams are just to give them a bit of structure.

My DDs' school also facilitates direct entry to Nat 6 / 7 for music in S4 upwards if their playing is of an appropriate standard.

There are a lot of different options so it is worth discussing with the music teachers.

prettybird mine have been told to print, leaving spaces between the letters (P7 and P5)

Ds' school has helped some pupils sit music exams other than/as well as SQA music exams. There is a cost implication though.

Our school puts great value on music and most years 1 or more pupils go on to the Conservatoire. It was criticised as being unfair doing it further upthread, its the Gaelic school.

weegie not criticising music provision as unfair I am a massive fan of music tuition for everyone. Sorry I was a bit brusque. I get frustrated when politicians make cheap points about superior performance at the few differentiated schools there are in Scotland without taking account of the reasons. I have no issue with Gaelic education for Gaelic speakers or even those with a particular interest but I would not want it to be used as the wedge to fragment universal comprehensive education for everyone else.

My DDs are very lucky to have a fantastically supportive music department, but the local community also has quite deep musical roots which it capitalises on. It similarly sends pupils to the Conservatoire every year.

pretty the exams are usually the least of the cost implications with musical instruments and tuition unfortunately.

True Howabout - and although I know the Parent Council has helped with the purchase of instruments (ukuleles were bought one year to encourage more kids into music ), other instruments are more expensive.

I started learning the flute on a school instrument - but I'm sure that people who are serious about their music would want their own (as I did eventually but lost it during a house move 30 years ago but dh bought me a new one for Christmas one year so I'm re teaching myself )

Thanks howabout, we are doing ABRSM for one, plus Scottish trad exams/trinity for the other. Reason for wanting to pursue H or AH is that it's a good option that plays to his strengths and shd give him one of those required 'A' grades for entry into higher education.