What's going wrong with Scottish education??

[TinfoilHattie]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39856284

Obviously very tempting to start another SNP bashing thread and I'm pretty clear that the blame for this lies at their door. It's shocking that performance is getting worst, not better and that less than half of S2s are performing well or very well in writing. It's all very well Swinney standing up and saying that it's not good enough but WHY is it not good enough and WHAT is he going to do about it?

Is it Curriculum for Excellence? Are the tests unrealistic? Funding? Changing expectations?

It's all very interesting for me as I have children in P4, P7 and S2 and those are the years which are tested. My kids are doing fine and I have no worries about them, but we're a family which values education and encourages reading. I do worry though about my daughter who spelled her new school as "Acadmay" and it wasn't corrected by the teacher.

So what's going wrong and how do we put it right?

Interestingly the only place in the UK not to have abandoned rote learning of times tables is Northern Ireland. IME they continue to have the most rigorous education system in the UK.

Not read all the threads but my son was at nursery when CofE was introduced. I was appalled by the level of measuring. The nursery went from kids just playing and learning to interact socially to every single thing they did being noted and ticked off on a list (X can put a triangle in a triangular hole etc. etc.) thus it meant the wonderful nursery staff were frazzled trying to tick all the boxes instead of just letting them be.
Whilst I understand that the CofE is trying to cover all bases so non-academic pupils don't fall through the net, it's failing on the basics. I'm still correcting my son's spelling and he's about to go to High School after summer. I'm all for trying different things but setting aside a specific time each morning for the 3 Rs would do no harm at all.

Streaming and setting aren't the same thing, streaming is where classes are separated by ability and kept like that for every subject and traditionally it's how some classes were taught things like Latin and others woodwork.

Setting is subject, or a group of subjects specific.

Some schools set just for maths and English, some for other subjects they link to those, so for example English would determine history and RMPS and maths your sciences and yes some don't do it at all.

There's a whole load of research that shows that both setting and not setting is better for different things...that's why there's not a set way.

But that was also the case before education was heading into a downward spiral, so that's not a recent thing.

As I've mentioned already, ds' school sets for both Maths & English from S1: Maths from about 4 weeks in, after doing some tests and English after the October Week (as it takes longer to assess).

At ds' primary school, they were grouped from P1 for Number time and Language time (3 groups across 1.5 classes iirc, but that also spilled over in to the year above/below so the composite classes could allow flexibility). But as has been said, whatever the groups were called, both the children and parents knew that there was a "top" more advanced group, a "middle" group and a "bottom" not so naturally gifted group.

Ah, that makes sense tabulahrasa, that was my experience in High School, you were streamed A, B or C and that applied across everything. Even at the time I thought it wasn't great as people who were maybe not that academic but skilled in other stuff ended up in C classes for everything and bright but handless pupils were in A classes.

@Turbinaria, in Scotland they do rote learning of every single sum below 20... However, times tables do seem to be spaced out an awful lot. If I understand correctly, they are supposed to have mastered them at P7, which to me is UTTERLY ridiculous, but that's another story.
In any case, today my DD1 (P3) came home with breaking news: they did counting in 3s. I wonder whether they will manage to tackle the 3 times table before the year is out... I shan't be holding my breath, though :D

@Pagan, it is called CfE (where the "f" stands for "for"). CofE is where some go to pray :D :D I had to read a couple of times your message as I was reading it wrong :D

Did we use the same nursery? I didn't think much of it at the time, but what you say makes sense... That is why there was so much paperwork and we were submerged with "star" material :D

Arkadia thanks :D I'm chuckling at my own stupidity.

I imagine most nurseries had to go through similar. The bit that really annoyed me was all the kids used to come in and sit down properly for a snack. They learned manners and sat nicely and chatted and helped clear up. All 30 of them aged 3-4! Then the inspectors came in and said it should be more child led - cue carnage and mayhem because all snack stuff was just laid out for kids to come and go whenever they felt like it. Like someone said upthread, CfE (got it right at last) is teaching too many skills that should be taught outside of school. I'm no teacher, haven't a clue as to how to teach maths or English but I sure as hell know how to teach my kids table manners and how to think for themselves. Let me do that and let the schools teach them how to write and do sums.

Hmm, I'm sort of on the fence with times tables. I could never do them myself and when I was in primary the way you got dismissed from class was by the teacher shouting out a times tables sum and if you got it right you got let out the class. I was always virtually last out. :( When I got to High School it turns out I wasn't stupid after all and achieved an A band 1 in Maths O'grade (only got a B in Arithmetic though). I still to this day can't do the more awkward multiplications in my head and I take ages to look up things alphabetically despite this I have gone on into employment specific qualifications and have done well in life.

DS1 was very much the same as me, number grids would reduce him to tears, yet he scored 98% in his Nat 5 maths. DS2 knows his times tables but struggles in anything number based.

Having said that I do believe that knowing the times tables should make numbers subjects easier and or quicker to grasp. It just doesn't seem to be the case for me and DS1.

This is fascinating. There is so much on this thread I don't recognise. I have family members teaching across Scotland and family and friends with DCs at different schools across Scotland. All of the DCs get homework and all the teachers set homework. All the parents that I know, have been told the topics their DCs are covering. Are they just in incredibly diligent schools or are they more proactive than the parents who claim they don't know their DCs' curriculum?
(And the people I know at the Gaelic school don't vote SNP).
As for the decision not to correct spelling mistakes, that was introduced in certain schools over 20 years ago. Now there seems to be more of a push to correct spellings in formal writing and not correct it in creative writing.
The Scottish system has lots of issues. Funding and staffing being two of the largest. But attainment is also affected by poverty and that is growing across the UK. Hence the explosion in the number of food banks and in the number of children living below the poverty line. If the GE predictions are right and the Conservatives win then all of those issues are going to get much worse.

We're in England and they abandoned rote learning of timetables in primary schools some twenty odd years ago as none of my colleagues who are in their 30s know them off by heart. I decided to teach my dcs them when they were in yr 3 and it took 3 weeks in total to do all 12 (10minutes each day during the car journey to school).

There were loads of psychobabbly stuff they got taught in primary which I was highly sceptical about. But now in secondary academic rigour seems to have been restored as the new exams are similar to the old O levels and setting/streaming is the norm in many schools. However I'm now having to teach my dcs how to learn, remember and apply boring facts like we had to at school but after years of blue sky thinking in primary it's not an easy skill for them to grasp

I was a diehard SNP supporter until my oldest went to school.

A very bright, happy confident wee girl who is being completely failed by the shambles that is the scottish education system.

Shes almost finished P2 and this is the first month we've had a headteacher.

NQT in P1 and both parents nights was described as exceptionally bright and doing really well. By Oct of P2 I had her part time teacher telling me that she was well behind her peers, struggling with concentration, behind on reading and writing, talked to much. It was complete news to me!

Tried to work on reading at home but it doesn't help that they give you a tatty old Biff & Chip book that's probably as old as I am and repeats the words "Mum" "Dad" and "and" 100 times. I ended up buying her a set of reading books and she is now up to Level 4, can read aloud most things pretty confidently and is actually enjoying reading! She just needed pushed a little but I fear teachers have no time to do this. Too busy with the bloody nativity

Shes on her Platinum Award for citizenship now and she's still none the wiser as to what citizenship means or what she has been awarded it for. No idea what this new mile thing is all about.

As I said she has two part time teachers, I can only do pick ups on Fridays and her Thu/ Fri teacher never has a clue about anything and literally says "I don't know I'm only here part time you'll need to ask Miss X"

Ridiculous homework such as "go to the shop and look for scottish foods, take a photo of it and tweet the school your findings" #pleasejustteachthemtoread

YY to never correcting spelling!

Looking through her jotter at parents night was I had to ask the teacher if there was more as there was literary about 5 pages of work in there!

The behaviour they get away with is quite shocking and it's surprising how much my 6 year old now sees this as normal. I remember at school before the bell went the HT would be out doing the rounds and god forbid if you were messing around. Regularly hear of kids kicking footballs at windows before the bell, walked passed one day during lunch and saw a full blown fight and no staff present at all.

All this from a school rated "good". I an genuinely terrified to think of the bad ones.

SNP have had ten years. All they care about is blaming westminster for everything they can't control and throwing money from the rainbow unicorn tree at everyone. Free prescriptions for middle class professionals, free uni for Tarquin who wants to study Economics of Sports Sciences and has no intention of getting a remotely well paying job after it, free school meals, council tax freeze, bedroom tax you say- no we want to see families homeless while single adults kick about in 4 bed homes, free this free that, we'll pay for it with that rainbow unicorn have no fear because you are Scottish, the greatest nation in the world.

Crowded curriculum far too much to teach
Class sizes too big
Focus on mainstream school for all but cutting CAs and ASNs constantly.
Too much paperwork not enough teaching
Not enough resources, teachers are spending a fortune of their own money on resources
Growth mindset daily mile mindfulness outdoor learning health and wellbeing week all these things are well and good but not at the expense of the basic literacy and numeracy skills

Our secondary school has no setting at all. And there seems to be no homework. DD was told to design a poster a few months ago. Which I gather is the worst kind of homework you can set - total waste of time. I assume the teachers don't want to spend time correcting the homework, or perhaps it's felt that it's too much to expect of some of the children or something. Expectations are so low. Loads of pupils are privately tutored, and the head seems to be happy about that. It feels like a real waste of these secondary years, and I'm not sure how children manage university after so many years of not doing much.

Then the inspectors came in and said it should be more child led - cue carnage and mayhem because all snack stuff was just laid out for kids to come and go whenever they felt like it.

I've heard of free-flow snack time and it just sounds like the stupidest idea ever. Since when was wandering about absentmindedly shoving food in your mouth all day considered a good thing? And dentists must be horrified. Non-stop picking at food is hard on your teeth even if the foods do not contain refined sugar.

Something that is repeatedly coming up on this thread is the number of caring parents who are resorting to teaching their kids themselves and hiring tutors. Expensive and tiring for middle class families. And impossible for most poor, educationally-unconfident parents, so their kids are going to be absolutely screwed.

And it's all the sadder because historically, Scotland used to be rightly proud of having an education system where it was relatively easy (compared to England) for kids from quite humble backgrounds to do well and aspire to further education.

Hamiltoes what set of books did you buy?

DD is in P4 and I'm pretty happy with the education she's getting.

There is setting in her school with some of the brighter kids being pushed in area like reading, maths and creative writing. She expressed an ambition to get better in maths and get to the top group - she's been supported in class by her teacher and has achieved her goal. There are specific goals for the more advanced groups and certainly a few of her class are achieving beyond the expected level. It is fair to say that many of the children in the top groups are from fairly middle class/professional backgrounds with parents educated to degree level.

Most importantly for me, she's been taught in a way that means she loves learning and the basics do seem to be there - spelling, times tables, grammar etc. Tonight she's been telling me about prepositions and easily worked out the difference between the time here and in China.

Perhaps I'm missing something, have low standards or have just been lucky with DDs school but it does seem to show that CfE can been implemented well at primary level.

Secondary seems to be a whole other story though from friend's experiences.

MrEBear its the "read it yourself" series by ladybird. Highly reccomend them, she is finishing P2 now and has gone from hardly any reading ability to reading to her younger sister each night. They're fab!

On the reading schemes - there is other stuff out there. My middle child was an unconfident reader so we did buy her some of the "read at home" Biff and Chip which I loathed but helped build her confidence as she was so familiar with them and the characters. Then we progressed onto those awful rainbow fairies books which again she loved and as every one is the same it helped with confidence too. I don't think you need to stick to one "scheme" - just read everything you can.

I see now the difference between streaming and setting - yes our Primary and Secondaries put children into sets, but not streams. Streaming in that sense didn't happen when I was at secondary in the 80s either - but did when my parents were there in the 50s/60s. But then again it happens by default as they progress through seconday as the more able ones are studying for Highers and Nat 5s, the less able ones are doing Nat 4s.

"But then again it happens by default as they progress through seconday as the more able ones are studying for Highers and Nat 5s, the less able ones are doing Nat 4s."

Not really there'll be a whole load of pupils doing 4 in some subjects and 5 in others. Also subject choice is based at that point by how well they've done in that subject... as in if a pupil has a good nat 5 pass in history they'd be ok to do higher history even if they were only on nat 4 for English.

It's less rigid... streaming is more like grammar schools, you split them off at a certain age by ability and that's that.

And yes it's not something that's been done up here for a very long time.

Nat 4s are a discredited qualification and no employer will accept it.

Thank-you I'll try and get my hands on them.
The pace of reading with my LO is slow and frustrating. I think they are loosing all interest in being able to read. He gets a new book on a Monday and reads it on a Monday night. So I've started finding him other books at a similar level rather than reading the same book over and over again.

@turbinaria, are you kidding me? How can you get by without knowing the times tables? If you pardon my saying so, it is such a handicap... You can't even work out a price at the supermarket...
To me times tables should be taught ASAP otherwise there is SO little else you can do. (That is my resolution for the summer with my DDs so we don't have to labour them anymore in years to come)

@hamiltoes, I feel for you ;)

Learning times table and number bonds on car journeys when DD2 was 7 is the most effective thing I have ever done to get her enjoying Maths and school.

Reading took sitting down with her in the P2 Easter holidays every day till she understood what was expected of her and built up confidence through a bit of uncharacteristic patience from me.

DD2 is 14 now and has had little input from me for the last 7 years.

I notice a considerable improvement in the teaching of the 3Rs for DD3 who is now 5. She took longer to be sent books home, but when she got them she was already confidently reading, including decoding. I only knew for sure they were working on numbers because the Nativity had a counting theme. It has taken till now for her to be doing formal written sums but her number bonds are more secure than either of her sisters were at her stage (DD2 was CfE but DD1 predates this for early years). Writing also took longer to be visible but she now does her fairly minimal homework and then starts writing stories and letters driven by her own enthusiasm.

Her written homework this week was to draw a plant and then name all the component parts. I was surprised she could already spell the necessary words.

Her school at least is headed in the right direction so my worry is that there will be an over reaction to the performance stats which will lead to undoing the progress made since the early implementation.

DH still misses the Fairy books he read with DD1 (literally 5 minutes after tea with him doing most of the work until she started telling him off for reading "her" words). DD3 is an Astrosaurs fan. I also used the Dr Seuss books with all of mine but second pp who recommended reading everything and anything - we never go back to the HW book if it is fluent first time. We do go over the key word lists sometimes though.