With NS saying that Brexit would force indyref2 are SNP faithful confused on what to vote?

[OneMagnumisneverenough]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2016-scotland-36124382

If they vote to stay in the EU (the party line) and the stats are driven down and show that had Scotland voted on their own they would have wanted to stay then that supports the call for indyref2 if Brexit wins, but if they vote to leave there is more chance of Brexit winning and therefore an excuse to call for indyref2 (if figures show that Scotland would have voted to stay).

Me too tomorrow. Plus, if SNP want to waste their own money on a referrendum, fine. But dont waste any more taxpayers money that could be building houses, feeding families, helping the sick and disabled and educating our children.

The line of argument, as I understand it, is that if the majority in Scotland vote to remain but UK as a whole to leave, then that might/might lead to pressure for Indyref2 before formal sign-on-the-dotted-line exit.

But if the majority in Scotland vote to leave, then they'll leave along with with rest of UK because there would be no reason whatsoever to take the view that it was against their expressed wishes.

If Scotland vote to leave, but rest of UK, votes to stayed that might also trigger an Indyref2 but the campaigning would have to look rather different with a known majority view to leave.

Exactly, Magnum. Parts of our business deal with health boards and social housing providers, and I shudder when I think of how much both sides spent on the last referendum, and where those monies could have been better spent.

Im so pleased to find this thread. My heart just sank at the beginning of this campaign when NS started talking about a second independence referendum - I reallycouldn't bear to go through all that again, it was horribly divisive.

Not at all confused

Have always been in favour of the EU (and the EEC/EC before it).

Have not always been in favour of an independent Scotland (in fact, had many an argument about it at Uni and would've been a No voter in 1979 if I'd been allowed to vote as it was, my vote counted as a No anyway as I was on the electoral register) but have changed my views in the 37 years since then

Oh, in answer to the original question, I won't be voting SNP and will be voting to stay in the EU.

Did anyone see NS holding up a picture of The Sun? Thoroughly distasteful, especially given recent events.

There will definitely be another indyref in the next 5 years is my prediction. Seriously thinking of chucking it all in with Scotland while it's all going on and I may just not come back. I love Scotland, it's my home and where my heart lives. I could never see myself living anywhere else, but I just can't be doing with anymore of the shite. :(

But in another referendum, surely there would be even more no voters? The case is laughably weak now. The White Paper would be brown, it would be that full of crap

But in another referendum, surely there would be even more no voters?

You would think so, but I would predict not. The lies being told and the popularity fuck knows why of NS would make it even closer i think but the longer they leave it there is more chance of disillusionment creeping in and the prize will get further away. So that's why I predict it will be after this week's vote but before the next probably. I think it'll happen regardless of brexit - that'll just be something that (should it happen) they will use as an excuse. It'll be the will of the people and all that - totally ignoring the fact that the will of the people was to stay in the UK.

Roonerspism You would think - but the case was weak before the last referendum, even before the oil slump, and it came so close to being a Yes vote.

Oh come on flippinada, it was quite clearly the Dandy she was holding up and it was photoshopped by MI5 to smear her. #dandy gate

I've said several times it's like the emperor's new clothes onemagnum. It's quite terrifying how many people are refusing to believe that Nicola was holding up the Sun and that dreadful photoshop job is the original. I just don't get why people are so blind!

It just seems to symbolise everything that's wrong with Scotland at the moment. Sturgeon will do whatever it takes to get independence, the end justifies the means and she gets away with it because her cult followers will not accept any criticism of her and the SNP.

Agree trixy and the opposition are letting her aways with it. She just repeats and repaets and repeats the same old stuff, they get fed up fighting it so it then becomes the truth because it been said so often and in the end has been allowed to sit there as fact.

Why no-one was challenging her "the democratic wish of the people" stance which is based on poll stats with other poll stats such as the majority being against the named person legislation and inviting her to also follow the democratic will of the people as expressed through polls on that matter also?

But then we all voted in the "once in a generation" democratic vote and the actual results of that vote have been ignored. I wonder how quick they would be to organise another referendum if we had voted yes and a few years down the line, the polls indicated that we wanted back in? (not that the rest of the UK would let us, but you get the point?)

Oh yes, of course it was a copy of the Dandy. Silly me!

I think I'm getting fucking referendum phobia. If we're going to get this divisive crap every few years, I'll be leaving Scotland anyway, regardless if whether the SNP get their bloody independence or not. Even the EU referendum has got my teeth on edge and I swear it's only because of the R word.

hiding I just said that on another thread. If I can hang on 3 years to let DSs finish school and then we'll be able to move. Love Scotland, can't be doing with the shit though.

sorry i said it on this thread - getting confused!

I love Scotland, I'm Scottish as far back as we can trace...but the Saltire has been hijacked, I'm scared to speak my mind in many places, and the lunatics seem to finally be taking over the asylum. I hate it. Even just thinking back to Sept 14 has me running for the tranquillisers.

Here's the other thread I was moaning posting on hence the confusion...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2628057-Nicola-Sturgeon-posing-with-a-copy-of-The-Sun?

Me too hiding.

Hiding - I couldn't have put it better. During the last referendum, I didn't recognise the divisiveness in the country that I love, and that has made me what I am. Both my grandfathers were farm labourers, and I was the first in my family to get a degree. I now have my own business and a life that is more than comfortable. My biggest fear is that, regardless of whether we have another referendum or we carry on with the SNP with such a majority, the next generation won't have the same opportunities that I've been given.

I agree. The problem is the lack of alternative of voters in Scotland. There is no one to hold Sturgeon accountable. I don't deny she is a great politician and that is part of the problem.

Short of entering politics ourselves, all we can do is challenge challenge challenge.

That's what I find so frustrating Roonerspism - why are none of the other leaders questioning the spurious and sometimes inaccurate comments that she has made about the SNP achievements? Even in the election campaigning, when you would expect them to be, they have been mainly silent

I am divided, but I think I have to vote with my heart and vote to stay in and then deal with the fallout from the fishy one afterwards if we end up with Brexit and she pushes for another indyref. She is completely amoral - once in a lifetime my ass! How anyone can trust a single word she says I do not know - it genuinely baffles me. I have lived in Scotland all of my adult life, as has my DH, and our DC were all born here. I love this country, but the SNP cult of AS/NS (and yes, I totally believe that AS is still there in the background having his say) is destroying this country and we would leave if we could. My DH works in the oil & gas industry and his job in Aberdeen is secure for now so we can't leave at the minute, but we are very sorely tempted. NS genuinely terrifies me.

tomorrow I have wondered that myself. It's so frustrating not to have an effective opposition.

I think the answer is that Nicola Sturgeon is a very sharp political operator with a lot of experience and the others don't have that - she's been working for this her whole life.

I've rtft but very quickly so apologies if I repeat anything. I think the Brexit vote must be a big dilemma for SNP party.

On the one hand, a 'leave' result hands them an argument for another Indy-ref, which they want.

On the other hand, it leaves them negotiating as a completely new entrant into the EU. My feeling during Indy-ref was that this would possibly have been the case anyway in the event of a No vote. Even the most-die hard Indy supporter I know acknowledges leaving NOW means Scotland's position within the EU becomes very much harder.

So this would mean that to persuade people to vote for Indy, the SNP would have to argue against some hard issues

1/ adopting EU
2/ requirement to massively reduce deficit to meet conditions (in other words spending cuts and/or big tax increases - neither of which the SNP faithful are fond of).
3/ adopting shengan - which is fine, but if UK is out it will mean border controls between us and our biggest trading partner.

These will be easily argued, and difficult to argue against. That's off the top of my head.

In addition, they cannot make same economic arguments because GERS figures are not good at the moment. And they can't blether about an oil fund anymore.

No is still ahead of Yes in opinion, and I think it would likely widen.

On balance, I suspect SNP think their best chance of indy will be if UK remain. That would be a long game though. But if we remain it weakens their other argument which is that non-scots are less tolerant of immigration, less 'moral'.

I voted no to Indy and will vote to remain in EU. All for all the same reasons. I think that's the consistent position.

I also think a remain vote will help unify the UK, weaken UKIP, and plays against the SNP's divisiveness.

We really need more evidence of commonality and shared values (which I do believe we all share) to counter that nationalistic horribleness.