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SAHP

A place for stay at home mums and dads to discuss life as a full-time parent.

Original poster

Why is SAHM/ wanting children such a taboo?

115 replies

Jadeyspade · 09/03/2023 22:30

I have always wanted to have a large family - 3-8 children would be my personal ideal however I understand why this would not be for everyone. I work outside the home however I prefer any work to be secondary to home responsibilities/ care of children.

It seems to me that to want a large family/ SAHM/ a family setup that would be completely the normal 2 generations ago - in these days (and especially on mumsnet) is a taboo?

My Grandmother was a SAHM with 5 Children - her role in life was "Wife and mother".. Deep down I have always wanted what she had. Since been an adult, I have worked extremely hard to get career/ delaying children etc to achieve financial stability. Despite this I feel trapped in this career and unable to afford the children I want despite working so hard. In all honesty, I would trade my career for the life my Grandmother had given the option

i am accepting that the reality is I may not fulfil my "large family dream" due to finances/modern lifestyle pressures etc however it seems to me that to admit to wanting these kinds of things in the first place e.g. SAHM/ a large family/ traditional setup attracts judgement and been frowned upon

I spoke to my 80year old neighbour recently - he was telling me that in his day, it was seen as a shame if a woman had to go out to work as it meant the husband not providing well for his family. I definitely feel it's a good thing that society has moved on from this and that women can choose careers/ not have children if doesn't want

However I feel it's a huge shame that society has gone so far the other way and on some level I don't think feminism has done all women favours. women are often forced through financial reasons to return to work and been a SAHM/ wanting children seems to be quite judged

I am unsure about feminism and it's place here. i basically believe if a woman wishes to work/ focus on career she should be free to do that. If a woman wishes more fulfilment in family life/ motherhood that's fine too.

I have been reading more recently about the rise of one child families/ threads about women feeling they have no choice to have a child/ another child due to nursery costs/ finances etc and think it's actually quite sad that society has gone so far this way in supporting family life

Thoughts??

OP posts:
Doesthepopeshitinthewoods · 10/03/2023 09:47

journeyofsanity · 10/03/2023 07:35

People on MN have a very myopic view on this as with many things. Reality is, financial destitution after divorce depends completely on so many factors other than if you are working or not. I haven't worked since having dc. We have a lot of money. If dh was to piss off which I doubt as we love each other dearly, we'd both be financially fine. We'd have less but would he absolutely fine.

😂 well yeah, you apparently ‘have a lot of money’.

NeshNamechanger · 10/03/2023 09:55

Donnashair · 10/03/2023 06:40

I find the opening post quite odd.

Everybody’s job should be ‘secondary’ to their home and family. You work to live not live to work. I have a senior well paying role, my family don’t come secondary. For most people, this is the case.

Being a sahm isn’t a taboo. I don’t know where you have got that. This is website predominantly used by women. The risks of being sahm are discussed. The fact that a lot of people can’t afford it, are discussed. The vast majority of posters, seem to believe people should make the choice themselves but still be aware of the potential pitfalls. These pitfalls are dependent on the situation. Discussing this doesn’t make it ‘taboo’. I am confused about the point here. We shouldn’t discuss it, because it makes it taboo? I am sure there’s some posters who are militant about not being a sahp. Just like there’s plenty of posters who live to talk shit about mothers that work.

If you just look at threads here, so many women get screwed over being a sahp. There’s a thread running now where a woman was a sahp, her husband has left. Cut her off apart from a small allowance and she can’t get a court date for months. Even though she will probably be fine after the divorce, short term, she has huge financial issues.

Many women post where they have become a sahp and unmarried, living in their Dps house and find themselves ruined by the split, many of theme never realising how vulnerable their position was. Discussing these dangers doesn’t make a sahp a taboo subject.

Has it ever occurred to you, that your grandmother (the same as many women of that age) may have, deep down, wanted more than just being seen for how she was related to other people. Wife and mother isn’t a personality. It wasn’t who she was. She was a whole person. You position her as someone whose only role, is as a relation of someone else. Her entire being reduced down to the care she gives other people. Your grandmother may have loved her life. She may have learned to love her life. She didn’t have choice to live the life she did. That what she HAD to do. You may want that. But that doesn’t mean it should be the only option available for women. Because you think it would suit you. Would you take the huge downsides with it? You would choose to trade your lifestyle for the option of having hers. It wasn’t a choice or option for her. and had her husband died or left, she would have found life extremely difficult.

My great grandfather was extremely abusive. My great grandmother left him when my grandad was a child. She could because she had the money to do so. But that was extremely rare. She had to move area and tell people he was dead (family knew the truth) because she was so ostracised in the area she lived in. Many family members didn’t speak to her. No one knew she had sisters until she died. She never had more than one child as she couldn’t secure a divorce without risking her life and her sons so couldn’t remarry and having a child out of wedlock, wasn’t an option. That’s not a time I want to live in.

Feminism isn’t the reason people can’t afford to be a sahp now. The reach you have performed to blame feminism for the financial situation of society is impressive. Things are not perfect for women. One of the main reasons, is because society still expects so little from men. So you get women, working plus doing the bulk of childcare and looking after the home, because of how society (patriarchy) still views men and women. That won’t change until more men step up and actually act like partners. Changes in society take hundreds of years, the fact that we aren’t where we want to be (which is equality) doesn’t mean feminism was wrong or has failed. It’s a work in progress.

Feminism isn’t about women wanting to be like men. Or only wanting the life men have traditionally held. It’s about having the choice. About being seen as a whole person if you choose to not have kids. About being treated fairly in the work place and your effort and talent being the focus, not wether you have or will reproduce. That you can have the choice to be a sahp or working parent if you finances allow and both people want it. You talk about people talking negatively about sahp. It happens about wohm. Never about wohm dads though. Sahd often get more praise than sahm. So it still doesn’t follow that feminism is to blame. The choice of women being able to work or not, as always been finances dependent. That’s not knew. Many women did work, because there wasn’t enough money if they didn’t.

Did you ask your 80 year old neighbour why, he and his peers didn’t push for change to women’s rights? Many of you neighbours peers beat their wives, raped them, financially abused them and were sanctioned to do it. Sanctioned because it was known it happened and women were expected to stay. If he really believed a wife at home was so important, why didn’t his generation ensure women were safe doing so? How long did they expect women to treated as someone property, because it suited them, whilst being treated like crap before they wanted change? Why didn’t they (as they had so much more power than women) do something to protect women and children and not accept abuse as just part of life?

Again, you final paragraph is a reach. Feminism isn’t why people can’t afford loads of kids. It’s not why they can’t afford to stay at home. I don’t understand why you feel it’s sad that people plan and have the kids they can afford.

The thing that has the biggest impact on outcomes for children is poverty. It can’t always be avoided, but planning your children to minimise the chance of poverty is sensible. As an aside, women often end up as single parents in poverty, because of the male parent. The male parent. Not feminism. That’s always happened. Even in the ‘golden era’ your grandmother was from. But poverty less likely to happen if the women has an income or money of her own.

Show quote history

Just brilliant !

mimi0708 · 10/03/2023 09:58

I agree with you OP. I feel like being a SAHM is very much looked down upon in here and not respected whilst where I am from it is really valued and the job of raising children is respected. I think women should be valued whether they are working or raising children at home.

BadSkiingMum · 10/03/2023 10:13

'I am quite confused about several posts linking having children to the cause of environment problems. My Grandma and her didn't own a car or go on foreign holidays. I see many people today with no children or small families who have holidays constantly using planes/ expensive travel. I can understand how plastic nappies are an issue but there are alternatives to this.'

The issue is that children born today won't live as your Grandma lived. They are likely to live modern, consumption-based lives. Even though a parent can control the environmental impact of a baby by breastfeeding and using cloth nappies etc, each child grows up and is likely to become an adult who will need to be housed, clothed, make daily journeys (probably by car), make their own choices about consumption and eventually have children of their own. Despite our best intentions, human nature always leans towards speed, comfort and convenience, justifying the environmental cost. Look at how often people take car journeys rather than waiting for a bus that goes along exactly the same road...

The environmental cost of having more children has also been calculated, looking at the lifetime impact of that child's consumption and their children's consumption:

'The new study, published in Environmental Research Letters, sets out the impact of different actions on a comparable basis. By far the biggest ultimate impact is having one fewer child, which the researchers calculated equated to a reduction of 58 tonnes of CO2 for each year of a parent’s life.
The figure was calculated by totting up the emissions of the child and all their descendants, then dividing this total by the parent’s lifespan. Each parent was ascribed 50% of the child’s emissions, 25% of their grandchildren’s emissions and so on.'

Article about the environmental impact of having fewer children vs lifestyle changes

No single individual should feel guilty about this - it's just a fact of life - but I think these days it can't be entirely ignored.

GertrudeBell · 10/03/2023 10:18

Life is more expensive and most people can’t afford for one of the parents not to work at all.

Some of the threads on MN challenging posters about whether being a SAHM is feasible are really questioning the affordability and the prospect that the family will end up relying on the state.

But mainly the issue is that MNers have read too many threads about women who are stuck in terrible marriages because they have no financial independence, or left in dire straits when their husband/partner disappears. It a big risk to take.

NeshNamechanger · 10/03/2023 10:24

mimi0708 · 10/03/2023 09:58

I agree with you OP. I feel like being a SAHM is very much looked down upon in here and not respected whilst where I am from it is really valued and the job of raising children is respected. I think women should be valued whether they are working or raising children at home.

There isn't an or though.
This part of the issue , working parents are also raising their children.
It's the patriarchal view -that children are the woman's responsibility so if she WOH there's an issue.

InWalksBarberalla · 10/03/2023 10:55

OP, how did you Grandpa feel about working long hours to support the 5 kids I wonder? Would he have preferred to have spent less time working, and more with the family.

We've been lucky to both be able to work part time and share the parenting evenly.
Hopefully if the male child ends up being a father one day he won't be one of those useless ones you read about on here way too often. In his head mum and dad both work, cook, clean, parent, etc.

Donnashair · 10/03/2023 11:00

Jadeyspade · 10/03/2023 08:02

Thanks there is some very good replies
The capitalism over feminism idea - I have found the most helpful. i apologise for offending people on this - I clearly have got this wrong

There is a lot of people making assumptions as well. Yes I have a child already and I love been a mummy and feel very fulfilled by this. I also am a nurse and I do enjoy my job although i mainly continue for paying the bills/ financial reasons rather than a sense of true vocation

My SAHM grandmother was working class. She was fortunate to have a good, kind husband and I understand how there could have been big problems if he was abusive. She told me all of her children were planned. Grandad was a lorry driver working long hours but he kept the roof over their head and the family were fed. My Grandma didn't have many treats materially but her children and grandchildren were everything to her. She was a very happy and inspiring woman

Quite a few of the older nurses I work with often had a few years away from the job when their children were young. They then would do return to practice when the children started school. This seems to me like a good middle ground. However, this mid way choice seems to me impossible today

Also I am definitely not judging one child families! What I am saying is I feel it's a shame that women often feel unable to choose the family size that they would prefer due to childcare costs etc. If one child suits one family, that's fine. However I feel my grandmas choice to have 5 children is a good choice too!

I am quite confused about several posts linking having children to the cause of environment problems. My Grandma and her didn't own a car or go on foreign holidays. I see many people today with no children or small families who have holidays constantly using planes/ expensive travel. I can understand how plastic nappies are an issue but there are alternatives to this

Again you are conflating issues.

Your grandmother isn’t having kids now. So it’s irrelevant when it comes in environmental impact.

It’s extremely rare that anyone gets exactly the amount of kids they want. I am going to guess you know the good bits of your grandmothers life and looking at it through rose tinted glasses. You paint a picture of the perfect woman, with a perfect husband who had the exact amount of kids she wanted. No more no less. That never struggled with 5 children and a husband that was rarely home. And whose whole life was happy and fulfilled all the time.

It appears you think you would be completely happy and fulfilled if you could be a sahp. But you live in a different time, different circumstances, different person, different husband.

But also the fact that you want to live in a time where you had very little rights, in exchange for this idyllic existence, doesn’t mean that’s what’s best for all women or children. Remember the patriarchy set up damages men in a lot of ways too.

Why do you feel it’s a shame that a woman may choose to stop at one child? For any reason.

What is it about having kids, that makes you think that everyone should be allowed to have as many as they want? Do you believe that when it comes to other things? People should be free to have what they want in all circumstances?

I am confused as to why, if you wanted to be a sahp you didn’t save from starting work to support the one thing you think will make you happy, being a sahp. Why you didn’t choose a different father for your children, if you can only be happy as a sahp. If having lots of children is important to you, why didn’t you plan your life around it?

Original poster
Jadeyspade · 10/03/2023 11:08

InWalksBarberalla · 10/03/2023 10:55

OP, how did you Grandpa feel about working long hours to support the 5 kids I wonder? Would he have preferred to have spent less time working, and more with the family.

We've been lucky to both be able to work part time and share the parenting evenly.
Hopefully if the male child ends up being a father one day he won't be one of those useless ones you read about on here way too often. In his head mum and dad both work, cook, clean, parent, etc.

My Grandad was proud to work and support his family

Now it often takes 2 full time workers to afford less children than they had! Despite me and my husband both working long hours, it doesn't enable us to have what my grandparents generation were able to have in terms of the children we would like

unless your in situations like yourself where both parents are lucky enough to work part time hours

OP posts:
Blueskies3 · 10/03/2023 11:33

I won't be able to have lots of children, and I love being a mother too. You can love being a mother to one child, and you can be completely fulfilled as a mother with one child too.
With the cost of living, we wouldn't be able to afford more than two, so it's simply out of the equation.
I don't think it matters with what you just want, you and your partner have to decide who is doing what, after all your DH may get sick of working full time and want to spend more time with the kids too. I think that is the unfortunate thing when the mother is the SAHM without any conversation being had.

Saschka · 10/03/2023 12:48

Jadeyspade · 10/03/2023 11:08

My Grandad was proud to work and support his family

Now it often takes 2 full time workers to afford less children than they had! Despite me and my husband both working long hours, it doesn't enable us to have what my grandparents generation were able to have in terms of the children we would like

unless your in situations like yourself where both parents are lucky enough to work part time hours

Show quote history

Well no, the issue is that you don’t want the drop in lifestyle that goes with giving up work.

Many Asian family have multiple children, on one family income (many not on benefits). Like your grandparents, they share bedrooms, they live in cheaper areas, they don’t run a car or go on holiday. You don’t want to live like that, which is fine, but don’t pretend it is because it is “taboo” - tens of thousands of families in the UK have multiple children and a SAHP. You are choosing not to, like most women these days, which is fine but it is a choice you are making.

NeshNamechanger · 10/03/2023 13:22

Jadeyspade · 10/03/2023 11:08

My Grandad was proud to work and support his family

Now it often takes 2 full time workers to afford less children than they had! Despite me and my husband both working long hours, it doesn't enable us to have what my grandparents generation were able to have in terms of the children we would like

unless your in situations like yourself where both parents are lucky enough to work part time hours

Show quote history

Do you seriously think your GP and their children had a similar quality of life as DC today?
They " worked" around the house, cleaning., mending, cooking and raising chickens and rabbits for sale in my GP generation or looking after younger siblings.
All the women worked in the evenings or weekends.
My father was one of 6, he left school and got his first job at 14.
He cycled 14 miles to and then from work in all weather's.
All his siblings worked at 14 and handed their wages over to their DM on a Friday until they got married.
None travelled or went to university, the conditions they lived in where pretty standard for the day but considered poverty now.
Those rose tinted glasses need to come off Op.

chanceofpear · 10/03/2023 21:22

Its not taboo if you can afford them. Our birth rate is below maintenance currently despite what the environmentalist will tell you. I don't think anybody should be deliberatly having any children if they can't afford to support themselves though much less numerous of them. I say that as a mum of 5. I also work full time to make sure we can provide for them. As a result we are not eligible for any state help including child benefit or tax free childcare.

NaturalBae · 11/03/2023 09:55

The role of Mother is not an ‘either’ or an ‘or’. It is possible for Mothers to work and also do a very good job raising well loved, healthy and well adjusted kids at the same time.

You could work PT and do school runs, school shows, school meetings, taxi to and from multiple afterschool/weekend extra curricular activities, attend baby/toddler groups. I did/do it with 3 DC. I work school hours from home with occasional short commutes to the office. DH is the main and high earner running multiple businesses. He wouldn’t have it any other way but to get involved in all of the above, where he can (mainly AM school runs, a couple of after school clubs, 1 weekend club and nearly all DCs hospital appointments). DH is away on business this week. Yesterday via a FaceTime call, I told him that our DS8 said that he was really missing him. I also told him that he is a great Dad. DH cried.

Most things are possible if you work hard. We didn’t meticulously plan our lives out like this from the start of our relationship. We met young, studied together and grew together. Both ambitious and determined to achieve our individual and shared goals.

Raising kids whilst receiving state benefits only because one healthy and able bodied parent chooses not to work should not be an option.

DidyouNO · 11/03/2023 10:51

That's what I wanted (and had) and life was great. All the time you can depend on the other partner to finance your SAHM lifestyle. I loved it and I'm very proud I did it BUT beware as it leaves you with nothing financially or career wise. My exH took everything and I was left with nothing and stupidly no career to even make anything or pay rent. Things came good for me but be careful.

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