so he thinks marriage is a waste of time but i dont?

[princessdaisyboo]

me and dp have been together 3 years and have ds who is 20 months and i have dd from previous marriage who is 4.5.
We have both been married before, i would love to get married to dp but he is not really that keen, i think he would do it for me eventually but basically thinks its a waste of time, he says he has always thought this and didnt want to get married the first time and look at where that got him, his wife left him.
He really wants another baby which i have said yes to but i want to at least be engaged before this happens, he said yes he agrees with this, so im sort of waiting for him to pop the question but then last night we were talking about a friend of mine who is planning thier wedding and he said this thing about it being a waste of time.
Do you think a lot of men are like this and they just go along with it to keep the woman happy? Im not sure if i want to marry someone who thinks marrying me is a waste of time, or is just doing it to keep me happy? What do you think?
It has really upset me.

I am divorced myself, and told dp when I met him I wouldn't marry again so never ask!! Now we have a child together (my first) if he really really wanted to, I would, even though I don't really see the point. I'd settle for a huge diamond and changing my name by deed poll !!

I'm afraid I would never have a child with someone without being married. For me it's legal rather than romantic - unless you can easily support yourself and child/ren you are very vulnerable. He could leave you at any time and you would not get very much financial support. Why would someone who loves you want you to feel insecure?

Unfortunately you are a bit up shit creek as you already have a child. He's not going to agree to marriage without an ultimatum, and that ultimatum would presumably be you leaving - and getting next to nothing in child support.

You have a child with this person and you do not know the details of his will?

This is a very odd situation. One that I am fairly familiar with.

If you didn't already have a child, I would say run. Far away.

I don't like the sound of this man at all. I think he sees you as 'will do for now' TBH: certainly he thinks that his wishes, feelings and plans are far more important than yours. I also think, unfortunately, that you have given him a weapon to use against you indefinitely - he knows that you are desperate to marry him so he is going to dangle the promise of The Proposal over your head like a doggy treat forever.

Do you know, the more you say about your discussions with him, the more alarm bells start to tinkle quietly in the background.

Reluctance to hand over control to you is one thing, easily explained by "once bitten twice shy". Refusal to even reassure you over things that he has complete control over is another. He may seem to be teasing when he won't tell you about the will, or says "if you're good" about being married - or he may be deadly serious, in which case it is a little worrying. There's no guarantee he ever will learn to trust you; it's just about as likely that you'll just fall into the habit of him controlling everything and keeping his secrets whilst you aren't allowed to keep yours. (Are you absolutely sure his ex-wife did the dirty and cleaned him out, or did she really run away because he was a control freak? Do you have anyone's word apart from his, his friends and family's?)

I do believe you need to be firm about some of this stuff, for your children's security. You need to know things like whether he has made a will. As a mother it is your duty to worry about things like this. One day a meteorite may land on his head and you're left with three children and neither income nor assets. Obviously don't keep nagging on about it, but gently and firmly press the point at appropriate times, and meanwhile make sure you don't go along with any more plans to keep you dependent and helpless. Absolutely agree with foureleven that being engaged is no security (emotional perhaps, but not financial) and that you should probably do the going back to work bit and getting into a strong position before thinking about another baby.

His family will see you all right... easy to say. What's the proof?

Yes I agree not to rely on his family. Im sure they are decent people but do they support his ex wife now shes off the scene?

My DPs family are the nicest most welcoming and giving people ever but since he divorced his ex wife they havent spoken a word to her (she is a horrible person but that is besides the point) Their loyalties are with me now as his partner and I think this happens a lot.
I dont hear anything or receive any support from my ex's family and we were as close as real family when he and I were together... and they're millionaires... They still left me to struggle for the first year when I was single and he gave me no maintenance.

Haven't read all the posts but I firmly believe the opposite of what most people post - which is that if one person really wants to marry and the other isn't that bothered, then the not-bothered person should give in and get married. If it's 'not a big deal', and worth nothing, then why refuse? Surely it's just a bit of a day out / piece of paper but with the added value of making your partner happy. Only reason not to IMO then is if you actually have some other reason for not wanting to beyond the 'it's not worth it' one.

Princess, also the difference between getting married and making a will is that, as far as I understand it, if you are of sound mind you can change your will without much problem & you may never know he has done this until it's too late. If he wants to divorce you at least you would know!

Struggle with the concept that it's too soon for him to get married but not too soon for him to have become a father.

Don't know how old you are, but certainly if time is on your side re: conceiving, I would stand up for want you want (in a subtle way). Go back to work, start saving something each month in your own name and don't try for baby number two until you are married (not engaged).

I have to agree with everybody else. Don't have another child with him if he won't agree to get married! If he wants another child with you then presumably he does see his future with you! So he's being unreasonable and selfish.

I had two children with a man I wasn't married to, and I realise now that that was a big mistake. When I had to leave him I had no rights whatsoever and he has been utterly determined not to contribute from day one.

Princess - please, please don't have another baby with this man until you have a serious conversation about your future.

You are in an extremely vulnerable position financially. He needs to marry you or transfer an interest in his house to you, so that you are joint tenants. Also, why do you have to ask him for money? If you are living together and you a SAHM, looking after this child, then you should have joint bank account out of which you can take out money for anything reasonable.

Sorry, just to clarify, "joint tenants" is a legal term for owning a property jointly.

we have had a good chat about things, he does firmly see me in his future for the rest of his life, he would love another baby but if i dont then that is fine, if i want to go back to work then that is fine but i think it hurts his feelings a bit when he has offered to support me enableing me not to work if i dont want to, he does not understand how vunerable i feel about money etc but its all my call. He does not yet have a will but is due to see his solicitor to make one in which he has promised to take care of me and the children in the event of his death, he is not ready to get married yet as he has only just got divorced, but he assures me that we will in 2-3 years even if it is more for me than him as he does not see it as important but because i do he will do it for me. If we split up i would not expect anything from him, except to help me pay for ds which i know 100% he would do, but im not keen on dwelling on these negetive suggestions that we are going to split up, were very happy together, I would prefer joint accounts but its not the be all and end all and if i needed anything i only have to ask, its just i dont like asking, always used to having my own money hence why im keen to get a part time job, He can be cagey and does find it hard to let me in and trust which is becuase he was so hurt from his ex but ive said he has to change he cant keep me at arms length because of the way she made him feel.
I have no proof she cleaned him out only his words so yes this may not be true just his hurt pride talking but i dont think he is a contol freak.
yes since we had ds i have increasingly found it hard to deal with the fact that he was ready to have children with me but not marry me but thats the way it is, im 31 and he is 41 so time is not so on his side.

thanks for advice, although lots are so negative, but everyone entitled to thier opinion and its given me a lot to think about and also i now ill keep going with my insistance that he makes an honest woman of me, then all the worrys will be solved, emotional and practical.

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I'm sorry daisyboo but I think it's very likely you will be back on here asking for legal advice and the women's aid phone number in a year or two. I think this man is passive agressive and controlling. Promises are all very well, but you need to watch what a person does not just what a person says s/he is going to do.

You say that if you split up you would not expect anything for you, just for your child. Don't expect you to answer this here, but if he walked out tomorrow are you confident you have the qualifications, skills and experience to walk back into a career that will keep you? If you are, no problem. If not, you need to take steps to protect yourself.

so how do i explain to him that the reason i want to marry him is for financial security for me and and dc's if he leaves us, I think this is the exact reason that he does not want to get married again so soon becuase he is scared to death that i will leave him and clean him out. If i say its for me financial security he still sees that as a huge threat,

yes i am in a vunerable position, im not comfortable with it but my options are,
leave him now because he wont agree to marry me immediatly, and have to somehow manage on my own with 2 kids, no current job or savings,(i think he would let me leave rather than be told what he has to do. so ultimatum is out of the question)
but i dont want to split up, i love him, we have ds together and generally get on really well.
Or stick it out, give him the time he needs to trust me and realise that im not going to hurt him like his exwife did. He has said he is ready to get engaged to me but not get marry for another 2-3 years.

He has promised that he will sort his will out and that makes me feel a bit better.

solidgoldbrass, thanks for your sunny prognosis on my future.

ladylapsang, im experienced/qualified in a couple of fields but not anything thats great money so i know im in a terrible position if he did leave me.

im gonna leave this post now as its upsetting me and now im really worried about my and dc's future.

You love him and are happy with him and of course you have a child together - I'm not suggesting you should leave him.

However, I do think you have another option and that is to make sensible financial provision for yourself and your children (provision for your joint child with him obviously). This would be likely to mean returning to work and coming to an agreement with him about what provision he would make for your child and any you have together in the future.

Do make sure you start saving in your own name and thinking about a pension too. It's worth getting into the habit of saving even if its only a small amount.

I don't think you should feel that you are being unreasonable bringing this subject up. After all, you have given up working to look after his child and his (I use the word advisedly) home. Even if you were the OW in his marriage breakup, he is divorced now and if he has reached his 'final emotional destination' with you he should be prepared to get married or make proper provision for you, otherwise he may still be keeping his options open.

we have just had another blow about this, i said i wanted to know the reasons why he is so against marriage and if it was because he is scared i will marry him then leave him and want half of everything, he says he has no reasons he just isnt ready to get married again, he said its his problem not that im not the one or anything like that, he just has a big wall up against it that he needs to get over and he needs help to do this not me nagging and moaning at him about getting married.

I was very upset saying im just so insecure about my future and how he is in complete control of my life,and if he decided to kick me out i would have nothing and the thought scares me to death, He has said right that will change, he says i have to get a job as soon as possible and provide for myself, he wont give me any more money (he only gives me the odd £30 -50 quid to do the food shopping, which doesnt cover half of it), he was very insulted that i think he would leave me. he has said that we are not going to have another baby anyway with me being like this,
sorry if this doesnt make sense, im upset, he is so horrible if i get upset it makes him really angry.

I wasnt the ow in his split, he had already been split 2 years, it was me that was married (unhappily) and i did leave my husband for him, i have done everything possible to prove how much i love him, but i still feel like ive got very little in return.

thanks for your advice

oh dear

so you have also been through divorce? and his was two years ago.

OP, although perhaps this single difficult issue isn't indicative of your relationship as a whole, it makes very sad reading.

he is using money to control you. he is also using his anger to control you (worse!). he is using your desire for another child to control you, and what is worse, he is then blaming all of this on you.

you do list several things in your post which seem deeply unfair on you.

when you are inside a relationship like that it is all too easy for the unnacceptabe to become accepted and normal - for a man to warp your perception until you think you are being 'silly' for wanting things that most women have in their relationships. Things that are ordinary, everyday - like sharing finances, like being equally committed, like being able to get upset and be supported rather than raged at.

people get married because they love each other and want to be together forever. people get engaged because they want to get married - not to fob off their other halves for a bit.

Ooh, he's really kicking against the traces now that you've questioned the status quo, isn't he?
Do you really want to marry him? He sounds like an absolute cock, to be blunt. You point out that as it stands, you are fucked if, God forbid, anything should happen to him. He reacts by saying he's cutting off the cash flow to you henceforth? And refusing to have another child to punish you for questioning him?
Pshaw. Tell him marriage or 15% of his income as child maintenance once you've dumped him - his choice. But, once again, do you really want to marry this dickhead?

aaargh im so confused, there is no way i can give him an ultimatum, he will not be told what to do, he is stubborn and a bit thick!!

It is he who wants another baby so much, i have two children so i dont have that longing for another as much as him, and i did agree to have another, if we got engaged, then this whole topic came up because he said he thought marriage is a waste of time.

I really dont know what im going to do, we have a beautiful son together and the last thing in the world i want to happen is split this family up, me and my daughter have been through that once and i have made a vow to myself i will never do that again.

So i have no choice really but to trust him and continue as we are.

I think having another baby is just going to make me feel even more vunerable and the responsabilities i have already scare me to death.

I need to get a job and get some of my independance back and see how that effects things.

he does sound like a cock i agree and sometimes he is, but he can also be lovely, caring and funny and a really good dad, I think he has big issues over commitment and marriage that i just dont understand as he cant explain himself, he is not a good talker, and very emontionally closed. just wish id figured all this out earlier on.

x

"I was very upset saying im just so insecure about my future and how he is in complete control of my life,and if he decided to kick me out i would have nothing and the thought scares me to death, He has said right that will change, he says i have to get a job as soon as possible and provide for myself, he wont give me any more money (he only gives me the odd £30 -50 quid to do the food shopping, which doesnt cover half of it), he was very insulted that i think he would leave me. he has said that we are not going to have another baby anyway with me being like this,
sorry if this doesnt make sense, im upset, he is so horrible if i get upset it makes him really angry.
"

I think he has big issues over a bit more than commitment, to be honest. You do have choices other than continuing as you are, and splitting up is only one of them. Call me an old cynic (I've been called worse), but no human being should ever trust another one 100%. Even the excellent types sometimes do inconsiderate things like having heart attacks or getting themselves run over. You need to have some kind of security. By the sound of it, you'll need to sort that out for yourself, as your DP doesn't sound all that co-operative.

princessdaisyboo,

Sorry to hear what you say in your last two posts. It must be hard but it's probably better to confront the issue now than bury your head in the sand and find yourself more vulnerable down the line.

So if you are divorced, do you have some assets you can ring-fence from that for you and your first child; and what about maintenance? Please say you haven't handed control of your money to your DP.

Remember, if you are looking for a job to talk to him about sharing the cost of childcare (unless he is offsetting other expenses).

Personally I wouldn't be too concerned about the lack of a joint account, I'm coming up to my Silver wedding and we have never had one but overall we are open about money.

Daisyboo, if you have another child with your dp, will he then expect you to pay for the upkeep? I struggle to see what you are getting out of this 'relationship'. It seems very very cushy for him and you are doing all the running around.

Is this the example you are happy to set for your dd?

He basically asked you to shut up about your desire for marriage. You called his bluff about how he holds all the cards and he got 'very insulted'?? I bet that is because you touched a raw nerve in him because it is true. He now knows you realise what your situation really is - he can no longer pull the wool over your eyes, so he goes on the offensive.

Very nice man, he is.

The longer you stay with this man (you are only 2 years' divorced), the fewer choices you and your dcs will have. You will have to consider whether or not you want to continue digging.

At least one thing he said is true - you are going to have to find a job.

Daisyboo, love - this man is not a loving partner and a good dad. He's only ever going to be nice to you if you shut up and do what you're told, because as far as he's concerned, he's the person in this relationship and you're just the 'woman'.
FFS don't have another child with him - he either sees you as a breeding animal or he thinks that if you have another baby you will be even more dependent on him and that's what he wants - you to be so dependent you have to be utterly obedient, so he can alternately promise to 'marry' you at some point in the future and threaten to throw you out or leave you with no money/food etc.

I think you should go and have a read of the Women's Aid website.