Feel a strange sense of self-loathing and probably need to see a counsellor - incredibly long and don't blame anyone who doesn't want to read it

[arabella2]

Background is that since my middle daughter was in nursery two years ago (she is just now finishing year 1), have had "crush" on nursery teacher which I suppose I have used as a crutch to deal with a lot of things in my life or mainly the problems I have within my relationship with dh. One member of staff at our nursery is the lsa who was with my ds (now 8) when he was in reception - she is an outspoken and funny person whom not everybody warms to as she can be quite opinionated but I have mostly found her to be kind, helpful and easy to talk to. So now each of my 3 kids has had her as a "teacher" as she is now in the nursery, my middle dd was there two years ago and my youngest is just finishing in the nursery now. She's not the person I have a crush on but is central to my liking for nursery or my slight obsession with nursery... anyway at least with her I do feel there is some kind of (school based) friendship. The person I've got the crush on or have had the crush on is the actual teacher who has been in nursery since middle dd started. He's kind of relaxed and very kind to the kids and got a thoughtful kind of perceptive presence as well as a kind of open demeanour and nice smile. However he is also quite distant with parents in lots of ways - if you have a question he is very helpful, but the lsa is the person that most people tend to talk to - there are also other members of staff who are kind...

Anyway have had this crush for a while and in many ways it helped me get through time which has been I suppose quite mundane/tedious in that I could fantasize about this person and I always knew (in the year long gap between my two daughters being at nursery) that I would be seeing him every day again when last daughter in nursery. So in this sense it has been a crutch because my relationship with dh is not fantastic - I find him overwhelming and domineering and have distanced myself from him a lot.

Don't really know how to express all of this - I can no longer think - oh well I will see said teacher in nursery every day next year (and when I say see I don't mean necessarily talk to, I just mean bask in presence of his personality) so I will be fine, because there IS no nursery for us next year, that's it.
I suppose if it was just this maybe I could deal with it but somehow I feel this horrible sense of self-loathing at the moment and don't even really know how to talk about it...

2 or 3 months ago I started volunteering at the school in year 6 - helping one boy who came to this country in february and who needs extra english practice (I used to teach english as a foreign language). The year 6 teacher is the mother of one of the little girls in nursery so this is how this came about. Next year I will be doing more volunteering, this time mostly in reception, as well as an Open University course, with a view to getting a job as a teaching assistant hopefully the academic year after next. I won't necessarily be able to get a job in the kids' school as the competition is always quite fierce, but I think it's nice that I am able to volunteer there.

I like being in the school environment and I like the kids and in many ways I am sure becoming a teaching assistant would really suit me. Part of me does feel slightly "fraudulent" when I am at the school because I am there "for free" if you see what I mean and not because I was picked in an interview. Anyway I think the little boy I am helping with English has benefited from the extra attention as his teacher (mother of child in nursery) says that he has become a lot more confident about talking in class. Part of me also wonders how much I wanted to volunteer in the school because of possible proximity with nursery teacher, and I have been thinking that as well as volunteering in reception next year I could tell the nursery that I could help them out next year if they ever need extra staff (which they fairly often do and quite often have students etc... in). Anyway the school is also where my 3 children go, I know more and more kids there and I suppose it is everybody's school - kids, parents, teachers etc... and as such I have as much right to volunteer there as anybody else.

This is turning into the longest post ever. I don't quite know how to explain how important nursery has been to me and even more this year than 2 years ago as have made quite a few new parent friends this time round and in a way it is as the centre of my social life because I will see these other mothers there every day at the 11.45 pick up etc... One of them is one of my best friends.

I suppose I have had to realise that said teacher does not spend time noticing me or thinking about me as I liked to fantasize he did... and it feels painful. In addition am feeling as if my dependence on nursery has been noticed by lsa as she cracks jokes about me not being able to survive without the nursery homework (last week they didn't give any out) ... which I am not totally comfortable with as I don't actually want anyone there to know that the place matters to me that much.

Recently youngest daughter has started going through a bit of a down patch where she is no longer happy to go and sit on the carpet (she was like this at first but then went through a very confident patch where she just said goodbye to me and sat with her friends)... she told me that she "hated" 2 of her best friends and also seemed tired. On one particular day she cried when I left her and teacher had to pull her from me. Then when I was at the photocopier (I was volunteering on that morning) I had a direct view into the nursery playground and could see her sitting by herself looking really miserable and not playing with any of her usual friends. So given the background of "falling out" with two friends (whom she is now friends with again), and fact that she was again so difficult to leave in the mornings plus fact that I saw her sitting alone looking so tired and kind of fed up - I did ask the teacher about her. I told him I had seen her from photocopier and must have sounded mad but I did try to set the context of issues with friends plus crying in the mornings - he said she had not been moping all morning so fair enough. (However part of the reason I was feeling worried about her is that he himself had told me the previous week that she had wanted to go home and had been quiet, plus he also told middle daughter that she had been asking for me - this is just before she was ill for a couple of days so maybe she was behaving like that because of feeling rubbish). Anyway do wonder if staff now think I am mad as lsa today referred to conversation I had with teacher about dd moping, saying that the rest of the time she would have been playing and I had only seen her for that second. I agree with this and told her soand again set the context for being worried.

Anyway, don't know what I am going on and on about - just that I feel vulnerable and lonely. Today while at photocopier again said teacher turned up to get some printouts and I was so shocked to see him there (he's never there at the same time as me) that I couldn't think of the first thing to say - nothing. He made some comment about the photocopier printing or not and I said "I don't know" without even looking at him. Feel like a total idiot and also fraudulent because part of me knows that he is one of the reasons I wanted to be around the school - his presence is somehow comforting. This is too bizarre however because he is not part of my life and it is ridiculous to worry so much about what one person may or may not think. The worst thing about it being that I don't think he thinks anything about me at all... Should also say that have generally been good and helpful parent and said nice things about all the staff in our report feedback sheet.

Anyway, all this has I supposed tapped into old feelings of inadequacy and self-dislike that I am finding really painful. In a way I feel detached from my actual life with dh for example as I find him so annoying in some respects (and we are not emotionally close which is I think what I find the hardest), on the other hand at least he is a real flesh and blood person and not a fantasy. So I am thinking I should find a counsellor to thrash it all out with as cannot believe I could become so obsessed with something that is not real and feel lonely and mad. I suppose we are facing the long summer with much less social contact because of no school and that is difficult too.

If you have actually read this far and not fallen asleep, please don't say anything too critical as I don't think I could take it.

Just wanted to add that the other thing that made me feel stupid is that I offered to help in nursery with their paddling pool - the lsa first said they have enough staff but that I could come whenever I wanted - later however she said that they did have enough staff which made me think that I should not have offered. Anyway best for me not to be there as dd would just stick to me and not play with anybody else but feel embarrassed. Feel all over the place and not in control of what I might do or say next (not in any serious or dangerous way, just in an embarrassing way) - wonder if teacher told lsa to tell me they had enough staff... Anyway lsa normally very laid back about parents occasionally staying in nursery. Just feel like a desperate dan in general.

I don't mean dd would feel embarrassed, I mean I feel embarrassed.

Hi Arabella

I'm sorry I can't stay up and thrash it all out with you (possibly over a bottle of wine), but had to post as you just sound so sad and lonely. What comes across most obviously is that you're focussing on this man, who as far as I can work out is just a normal nice friendly man, because of your marriage problems. I'm not married, but have been in similar situations with long term boyfriends - to me the sign to get out has always been when you start obsessing about somebody else. What's important is that the person you're obsessing about is not the answer, and I think you know this really.

You're probably right to think about counselling, as with 3DC you can't just walk out without at least trying to sort things where possible I suppose.

Please try not to worry too much about what this bloke thinks of you - as you say (like it's a bad thing) after this year you won't see much of him anyway. And your friend who works at the nursery sounds lovely and I'm sure doesn't think you're a weirdo about nursery homework at all!

It sounds like you're getting something important from the nursery, probably friendship and activity aside from your usual daily grind. Do you have a job? Would you think about getting one? Getting to know other people on your own (not as one half of a parenting partnership for instance) would probably boost your self-esteem and make your social life more independent of the DC.

Anyway will pop back tomorrow and see how you're doing.

Sorry that sounds mean - I meant I couldn't read you being so upset and just leave you to talk to yourself on the internet ( I have been there!)

Been a long day so might not be making sense. The core of what I'm saying is try to put things in perspective. You don't need to worry about what the nursery staff think of you (probably think you are helpful), what this man thinks of you, or anything else. These people are your DC's teachers, when all's said and done. You don't owe them anything, and if they think you are around a lot they probably just think you are over-worrying about your DD, which isn't exactly crime of the century.

Hi Elephants - nothing that you said sounded mean Thanks for your reassuring message and for reading my post! I am definitely going to organise counselling as don't think I can do everything I need to do in terms of my life with my kids and sorting out house (messy) and dealing with own feelings, without some external help.
It's true, nursery has given me important things and I suppose I will have to carry on the same social contact but in a different setting. I suppose our kids will be in reception next year so it is a bit harder to do the after school playdate as kids more tired but where there is a will there is a way, and also maybe mums' evenings out.
Yes definitely need external stimulus - have found just volunteering at the school and therefore being in contact with other adults, makes me happy. Hope to get a job the year after next, possibly as teaching assistant if this year works out and I actually enjoy it.
Thanks again. Thanks for saying probably nobody thinks I am a pest.

So natural to feel a bit sad that the nursery phase of your DDs' lives is coming to an end, and that a door is closing on that lovely phase of your childrens' lives, and to wonder what lies ahead for you and your circle of friends. And so natural when life is bleak at home with a domineering DH who overwhelms you to be drawn to someone kind and gentle -- everyone just wants a bit of kindness and affection after all. Very sad for you that you're not getting this at home.

I don't think anyone thinks you're being a pest either. Maybe they have some sort of feeling that you're hovering over your DDs if you've expressed concern about them? I don't think you are overdoing this either, but maybe seeing something of your own loneliness in them and worrying about it through them?

You seem to be at a crossroads, and I second the idea of some counselling to try to figure out how your needs can be met, even to figure out what they really are to start off with, maybe what can be salvaged in your relationship with your DH.

arabella

I remember you from your writings the other day.

You have written at some considerable length about your emotionally (he is extremely critical of you) and physically distant H over the past couple of years. You also do a good line in self depreciation; he is partly responsible for you feeling like that as well.

He has made you bloody unhappy as a result; what you are writing now is your mind telling you that you need to get out of this situation at home for your sake as well as your childrens'.

I would argue that if you were to leave this man you and your children would be an awful lot happier for it.

I was wondering what sort of relationship lessons you yourself learnt from your parents as a child (counselling may well be helpful for you in that respect too. Do not enter into any form of joint counselling). Unfortunately history can have a nasty habit of repeating itself but it is never too late. You deserve happiness.

Hi Attila and mathanxiety

Thanks for your messages. Mathanxiety, am at crossroads it is true - your youngest child starting school is a big deal. Maybe am projecting some of own worries about my present or my childhood onto dd it is true (and interesting to ponder over as well). It is also true that kind and gentle people are attractive (dh can be kind but is often on the edge with his mood - part of his personality).

Attila - yes in some ways I think I would be better off not being married to dh anymore, but the kids wouldn't be they all adore each other. Yes it's true not great for them to see a relationship modelled which is lacking in affection a lot of the time. However we are definitely a family and to think about breaking it up is really terrible. I know what I should be doing is concentrating on fixing things at home (mess in house first of all) and seeing if that helps dh and I not to be so tense with each other, but part of me feels an intense feeling of boredom at the thought of doing so and just cannot be bothered. Really I should be doing it for the kids but it's as if I can only do it if I have somebody encouraging around who is on my side like my mother would have been (even though we didn't really get on that well in the last 10 years of her life) - but she died 4 years ago in September . She was only 63 and loved the kids and has really missed out . Nursery ending is making me think more about her as if the two are intertwined - I try not to feel sad about my mother or I try to pretend she hasn't really died in some weird kind of way... psychological tricks of the mind.

The thing about dh is that he is very hard working and very loyal in a sense (not to me personally really but to the whole family and kid set up). In many ways I should be happy about his good points and trying to work on the things I don't like - especially his propensity to give me lectures about anything under the sun at the drop of a hat eg: "that should be in the fridge SURELY (said disparagingly)" and I just feel like saying "f... o.." at 41 I don't need to have conversations like that with anybody.

arabella

re your comment:-

"Attila - yes in some ways I think I would be better off not being married to dh anymore, but the kids wouldn't be they all adore each other".

Your children may not actually like him that much; they are seeing and learning from both of you here. As they get older too and want to assert themselves as people though he may not like that one bit and blame you for their apparant cheek towards him.

Would you longer term want them to have the same type of marriage that you now have?.
No?. This is precisely though what you are teaching them now. You are showing them that a non affectionate and emotionally harmful marriage is acceptable to you because you are putting up and shutting down.

You have written much about your relationship problems with your H in the last couple of years and he is showing no interest at all in wanting to address anything or any problems. You've been going around in circles with him.

I would ask you this question as well -
why is there such an onus on you as his wife to fix things?. What about his part in all this?. He must accept responsibility here. He is not doing this and is not interested in doing so. He's far happier blaming you for it all as it deflects all his responsibility back onto you.

"I know what I should be doing is concentrating on fixing things at home (mess in house first of all)

The supposed mess in your house is the very least of your problems. Why again is the onus solely on you to fix this?. Why do you feel an innate need to want to fix this unhealthy marriage?. He is not interested in wanting to fix anything here, he does not think he has done anything wrong. He has also done a fine job on you to get you to be thinking like this; you've been conditioned by him to accept this poor treatment of you as normal.

"and seeing if that helps dh and I not to be so tense with each other, but part of me feels an intense feeling of boredom at the thought of doing so and just cannot be bothered".

That is also very telling; listen to your mind here. A tidier house will not fix the fundamental flaws in your marriage either. He is and remains passive aggressive and overtly critical of you.

"Yes it's true not great for them to see a relationship modelled which is lacking in affection a lot of the time. However we are definitely a family and to think about breaking it up is really terrible".

No it is not bloody great at all for the children to be witness to all this. You're a family whose foundations are built on sand. This is no healthy and functioning family unit and you at heart know it. Your mind is telling you that you need to make fundamental changes here with your life.

Your late mother would likely be telling you to stop wasting your time on this man and make a new life for yourself and the children now without him in it on a daily basis. You only get one shot at this life; don't waste your efforts any more on someone who is totally disinterested and disloyal to you.

"The thing about dh is that he is very hard working and very loyal in a sense (not to me personally really but to the whole family and kid set up).

Many men are hard working and loyal and do not act like he does. Your H is not even loyal to you. Its an excuse to put up with poor behaviour on his part.
"In many ways I should be happy about his good points and trying to work on the things I don't like - especially his propensity to give me lectures about anything under the sun at the drop of a hat eg: "that should be in the fridge SURELY (said disparagingly)" and I just feel like saying "f... o.." at 41 I don't need to have conversations like that with anybody".

You would not tolerate this kind of nonsense from a friend, why should your H be any different?. You need to read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft. That may also open your eyes.

I doubt actually if he has many so called "good points" at all and by citing such qualities you paper over the cracks. Your H is both controlling and critical. Not your fault he is like this, he would have been the same regardless of whom he married.

~"I know what I should be doing is concentrating on fixing things at home (mess in house first of all) and seeing if that helps dh and I not to be so tense with each other" ~
Why on earth do you think that? I don't think house mess makes a partner treat you like gold or like shit; that's something inherent in THEM, and nothing you do will make any difference, if they have decided they don't think you are worthy of good treatment.

~"but part of me feels an intense feeling of boredom at the thought of doing so and just cannot be bothered." ~ Thank fuck for that, if you don't mind me saying so!

I actually think you are spot on in your title and counselling would be very helpful for you. I very much hope you seek it, and also make an effort to find a counsellor you 'click' with as I think you would find yourself a changed person, and so much happier. I think perhaps after some counselling and a period of time, you would not have to force yourself to leave your husband because the scales would just drop from your eyes, you would see him as he really is and have the self esteem and self motivation to do something about it.
Do give Relate or similar a call. I really feel they could help you. All the best

Hi Arabella

I too saw your posts from the other day and there does seem to be an issue with "the house". What is it that is so wrong with the house? Is it just that the mess gets YOU criticism? Or do YOU feel out of control with it? Does he ever do anything round the house, is it left to you, and criticism comes along with it.

It does seem like the mess in the house is some sorft of Euphemism for the "mess elsewhere" What are your feelings about this?

How bad is it? Is it detrimental to your wellbeing.Is it detrimental to harmony in the house?

I have been there when I've been dissolving in the other stuff the house had gone to the dogs. Recently I had an infestation of mice and that wasn't even that bad! Sometimes my house really has been a lot worse (live in a different place now where mice can be seen in the street, so my mess attracted them i guess) I have found the FLYLADY principle, and support from online friends pivotal to my success in sorting out my house. It makes me feel a lot better, but then I dont live with anyone critical and im sure my situation is very different from yours, we all cope differently too. Flylady freinds encourage and give each other a little kick up the bum, I understand entirely how demotivating it is if the mess is taking over, and I personally find it a euphemism, if my house is a mess then my mind is a mess, and Im in someway displaying my need to be "taken care of". Does your house-state also invoke feelings of shame- it does for me.

FWIW If I was a member of the staff at the nursery and saw a mum developing her career as you seem to be, throwing your all into it and getting so much back from it, I would be excited for you and pleased to have such a committed volunteer to support the very valuable work being done there!

I dont know about your husband, if you are distant from him due to his criticism, then theres only 2 real options, 1) leave 2) work with him via counselling and therapy to see if the relationship you want can be constructed from the state of things now.I dont think that the status quo is right for you, and I think it will be great for you to explore this further in therapy yourself, to get a real feeling for what you want and for your feelings and needs to be heard as I dont get the feeling they have been heard for a while.
take care
With love from 1foot xx

Hi Attila, CheerfulV and 1footinfront - thanks for your messages, it's really interesting and makes me feel relieved to have different ways of looking at things.
Am definitely going to set up the counselling option as it will help me sort my thoughts out and decide what I need to change in my life and how to go about it.
Yes 1foot the mess both attracts criticism from dh (lots of room disorganised, difficult to find things, the clutter much more mine than his...) and is also detrimental to the harmony in the house. In part I think it is me being passive aggressive towards him. I do feel shame and can only invite people over when some rooms are in a better state. I have read flylady as well and will maybe read it again as her tone is very upbeat and encouraging. I also agree that a mess in the house is concurrent with a mess in your head. Thanks for the nice things you said about helping at school. I do think I am distant from dh because of his criticism and I agree that counselling (only for me at first then we will see if he agrees to go with me) will help me sort out lots of things in my head and the way to go in the future. Thanks again .

Arabella, I have little to add to your replies above. Your threads make me feel a kind of agony for you! You seem to be "trying so hard" when it really shouldn't be necessary to try that much. There seems to be a powerful (unfillable?) need for approval in you, and your H seems to enjoy leveraging that for reasons of control. I find that contemptible.

I'm overjoyed to hear that you're working on your strategy towards more of an independent life, and that you're going to start counselling! Good for you

Just a note about your DCs and their adoration of their dad. They're young still, and all children of that age worship their father. Remember they have no external standards to assess him by: he's the only father they have, and they're hard-wired to love him. It's not in any way a conscious choice on their part. Small children even love parents who commit the most terrible abuse; they can't help it. They're still learning about relationships from their parents' example, though.

When the children's home environment is changed for a less emotionally-fraught one (even at significant material cost), behavioural issues tend to clear up as do, often, allergies, moodiness, etc.

Took the words right out of my mouth, CheerfulV! I certainly don't think tidying up is the answer to the situation you're in at the moment. You probably feel bored because a) housework is boring b) it is pointless to try and mend your marriage through tidying (IMO) and you know it won't work and c) one part of you is drawing you towards teaching work, this is the thing you enjoy because it has a positive impact on yourself and others, so you are probably secretly pissed off with the other part of you, the part that tells you to go home and iron the tablecloths and be a good quiet wife. You know that that kind of behaviour will just keep you down. You need more of the outside, proactive, social stuff that it sounds like you like and are good at.

On the other hand it might help you to get a couple of big black bin bags, one for rubbish and one for charity shop, and do a raid on the house, starting with the rooms you personally use the most. How old are the DC? Maybe the older ones can help. I bet if you found yourself taking a few big bags of clothes/trinkets/unwanted presents/crap to the charity shop, and chucking out more, you would feel brilliant and the house would have more room to breathe.

Yes - ItsGraceActually - you have hit the nail on the head, I do have a strong need for approval and I'm pretty sure I've had that since being a child towards my parents. They say that you pick a husband who is like your father and I think there are some similarities between the two, definitely I think I wanted my dad's approval.
The thing about the kids is not only do they adore dh, but he is also very loving towards them. On good days between me and him he is fine (we don't spend the day in each other's arms but we rub along fairly peacefully laughing about the kids etc...) - then at the weekends he can often be a lot more difficult, I suppose that is when he mostly has to deal with disorganisation in the house. The other thing about dh is that I haven't of late (for a few years now) told him how I would like things to be different so he may not even be aware that any of these thoughts are going through my head.

I suppose it also depends what kind of expectation you have from your relationship. I think it is only in recent years that people expect to find an emotional soul mate in their partner as I seem to want. Maybe sharing house and kids and looking after both is enough? Not denying that dh's propensity to be blaming and over-critical isn't very annoying because it is
but maybe he needs to be constantly reminded form a platform of me being more powerful. Having a tidy home will definitely give me more bargaining power. That probably sounds weird but how can I ask dh to change some aspects of his behaviour towards me when I am doing something he considers to be a major slight towards him. Not denying parts of relationship that I don't like at all at all at all, but 3 kids later I could probably work on things being more pleasant between us rather than separating kids from both of us together and also divorcing and only being able to see kids some of the time. That would be awful .

Missed your msg Elephants - thanks a lot for your thoughts. I think you are right on both counts - tidying probably won't help, volunteering more interesting and at the same time start decluttering anyway. I suppose an emptier house would make us all happier and dh does work hard out of the home so don't think I've been totally fair...

One Saturday a long time ago, I slumped on my white sofa in tears. H#1 was out at the footie and I was facing a long day of housework, shopping, grooming, etc etc etc. I rang a domestic agency and hired a cleaner/ironer.
XH was very cross. While still failing to realise this was an expression of his repulsive control addiction, I was satisfied that the help was a logical move. I stuck by my decision.

It made such a vast improvement to my life, I continued to hire a professional for the domestic stuff - all through my marriage, and the single years that followed (until I could no longer afford it).

Whilst I wouldn't recommend a cleaner as a relationship fix, I certainly recommend it as a painless means to more time for yourself!

Yes we used to have a very good cleaner who understood the house and who was kind and strong, but she stopped cleaning and became a live in carer and since then I have been loathe to invite anyone in (though have done it once) as don't want their judgements or to fork out money for somebody doing something slowly (as happened that one time). Do agree have got to be proactive though so will sort out extra help as well

He considers you not tidying to be a major slight? In what way? Does he tidy up at the weekends? Exactly what is his domestic contribution? Are you full time at the school with this student btw?

I don't think you've been unfair to your DH. I haven't read your other threads so don't know the background, but housework is boring stuff that families have to deal with in order to be clean and make the house nice. It isn't something you do for him. It isn't something you owe him.

Arabella,

Sole counselling for you would certainly be helpful. BACP have a list of counsellors and they won't charge the earth. Counsellors though are like shoes, you need to find one that fits with you.

That need for approval you have was hard wired into you as a child by one or both parents. I think your Dad was like your H is now i.e emotionally unavailable.

I think your H is partially aware of how you are feeling but he does not care. He would not like to be talked to with contempt (by for example his work colleagues) yet he thinks it okay that you are talked to in such a manner. My guess is as well he treats his work colleagues and everyone else around him with due deference. His other more abusive side is shown solely to you. However, that may change with regards to the children as they get older and start questionning him or answering him back. He won't like them trying to assert their own authority and opinions. As it stands now your children are young and thus easier to control.

Arabella

For what its worth as well, I feel that any joint counselling with this man will be a complete waste of time. He won't go to any counselling session anyway because at heart he feels he has and is doing nothing wrong with regards to his poor treatment of you.

I think it is very insightful Arabella when you say

"Having a tidy home will definitely give me more bargaining power. That probably sounds weird but how can I ask dh to change some aspects of his behaviour towards me when I am doing something he considers to be a major slight towards him."

After all, you say that it is more your "belongings" than his. ( what about the kids stuff, I hope you are not counting that as yours!)

Indeed, if this is the "stick he uses to beat you with" , and you feel very stuck with it, the situation seems "entrenched" he is communicating with you on this matter in a method that isn't gaining results.

For you to take control of this it will "shift" and that he wont be able any more to use this to criticise. I would be quietly making efforts slowly and not do a big song and dance over it as it sounds rather like its a big job.

The fly-lady principle will allow you to "start small" with your baby-steps, from a shiny sink, and soon your home will be as you would LIKE it. Seems fairly clear that this stick he beats you with can be broken into splinters ( by you!!) . If you are asking for change ( whether you verbalise this or not) then you have to meet halfway.If you are not able to meet him halfway- then why should he try?

If nothing else it is a symbol of the fact that you want change of all types, this is one way you will express that. Things are changing around here!

I dont say this from a "little woman stay at home" but as an understanding of how roles are divided up in the home.

I truly think taking control of it will improve your emotional health and your own feelings of control on the matter, it seems like you have been out of control and unable to control this task and this has led to criticism as opposed to understanding. In time I hope you can understand and so can he about what that is about, and how this can be avoided if you wish to continue your marriage to him.

I also found it ever so therapeutic to take this shit to the charity shop/bin/recycling the scores of leaflets and other junk around I felt "freer" than Id felt in a long time.

I hope it works out for you

1foot x

Do please be kind to yourself, the more so because it seems your DH isn't kind to you. You sound as though you are insightful and prepared to do a lot of work to make things better for yourself, which can only stand you in good stead.

One good thing to take from the nursery situation-you have made a really positive contribution there, made good friends and fitted in. While it may be sad to move on, you are obviously likable and have the skills to do all that again in a new place.

Arabella, your post this morning was full of the word "should". I should fix the mess in the house (to make my H love me and be nice to me), I should be doing it for the kids (like the kids care whether the house is messy or not), I should be happy -- the last is the saddest of all.

My ex used to tell me how to keep the kitchen tidy ("why can't you ever put anything away..") while I stood there cooking a nice meal for him....grrrrrrrrrrr It doesn't get better. Some people are not amenable to treating their OH nicely for various reasons. Counselling for you on your own would help much more than trying to bargain or come to some sort of deal or understanding with him. He will keep on raising the bar wrt what is expected of you. Nothing you do will ever be 'enough', because what he gets from you is what he needs -- a whipping boy.