I want to send this to my dh. Advice pls.

[proudnsad]

*I posted on AIBU about marriage seeming like an ongoing uneasy truce. We had a huge shouty horrible row on Sunday night and are not speaking. You'd think we were teenagers, not reasonable 40-ish professional people! I'm afraid he will just see this as 'another rant'. He really is a good guy, he is great dad, does lionshare of housework and childcare most weeks without any digs or complaint. But he will NEVER see my point of view and frequently demands apologies after disagreements, which I think is childish. Surely it's discussing and resolving not apololgising agains't one's will that will help? Anywa...

Dear DH

The row on Sunday wasn't about you coming home so late from the pub, not for me anyway.

It was about you stating arrogantly that you are a bloke at the pub and no you will not answer my calls or text me to let me know. It's a compromise and a decent thing to do so why not?

It's in keeping with other behaviours lately that are upsetting and frustrating me so much. Like telling me it was an 'ill conceived idea' to invite my mum round on a Sunday morning so you had to wake up to her. It was 10am, you were still asleep, I thought a) it would be a good idea to invite her while you were asleep and we'd been away for a week and b) that it was my house too!

I am still seething about your behaviour during the England match where you demanded complete silence from the kids. I was so on edge and when I got angry with you all you cared about was getting an apology. Well you got one, though I don't know why. I just wanted to keep the peace but it was you behaving unreasonably, not me.

And the mornings are only peaceful now because for some reason you have been calm and pleasant for the past few weeks. Yes I know this is a positive, but it's down to you making an effort NOT the kids being good, as you seem to think.

Your moods control the mood of the house, there are four of us not just one (you) to consider.

I love you, you're an amazing dh and df, but I can't bear this deluded 'I'm the man of the house, I'll do what I want and what I say goes' attitude.

Yes, I think you pretty much sum it up. Do you usually communicate via letter/email?

ha good question! No, but I don't know how to break the silence. And I am afraid of getting angry if he rolls his eyes when I ask to talk or start talking. Then it will escalate again.
Bit silly to email then?! Feel very immature. (But also very sad and angry.)

No not silly - was just curious. My h prefers to communicate this way whereas I prefer to talk. In your shoes, I'd probably go ahead with the plan. Maybe he might be more reasonable if he's got time to think about what you've said without the pressure of confrontation?

Ahh, thanks. Yes I think I'm going to have to. Like any other family we have loads of plans and arrangements coming up later this week, this weekend, we just can't carry this on. We have to get it together. But I need to offload some of this anger, give him a chance to say his piece and try and get some resolution.

I've been doing a course recently and one of things we've been doing is about giving construtive feedback. Reading your 'draft' I suspect he'll feel he's being attacked. Why not try the approach of:

On Sunday you did xyz
That made me feel.....
I didn't mind that......
But next time would you......

Does that make sense? It's really hard when you're so pissed off with someone to try to take the emotion out of it. Another tactic I've heard of is not allowing the other person to respond for 24 hours. The idea I suppsose is that they have time to reflect rather than be reactive.

Good luck

Max, yes I am guilty of doing the 'you always', 'you never', 'i'm sick of' and not listening to him.
I am sure I am a bit of a nightmare like that, as he frequently tells me. This is going to sound extremely pedantic but my fear is he will read it as an apology by stealth if I go for a softly, softly approach.
And will simply reply something like 'You were a nightmare, why don't you just say sorry'.

Why does he do the lions share of housework and childcare?

what reaction do you want to get from him?

but what is it you want from him exactly? as maxpower said - wher is the constructive feedback?

all you do is give your view... rehash what happened...

see, some of your phrases are those my exP still rants to me " you are unreasonable not me"
"there are four of us to consider not just you!" (coz he thinks i am selfish cos i left him... )

and all i have done is try to communicate somethihng like "the dcs have a party to go to on saturday at 4..."

oh and he used to do the "i hate you/i love you" thing all in one breath too...

maybe you both need some relate counselling - what you doing wont help....

I want him to acknowledge he is being selfish in certain circumstances and to amend that behaviour. I don't want apologies.

411 - because I work FT, he works from home, plus picks dc up and keeps house ship shape. All of that isn't an issue for either of us.

I think you should be assertive in your communication with him - firm but fair. Acknowledge any wrong doings on your part (if they apply) but point his out and say why they are intolerable to you. I was taught to give a feedback sandwich (in a communication skills workshop) positive comment, negative comment, positive etc. but that might be stretching it for you

i think writing it down and giving him space to read it and digest it and form his response is a good idea. it does sound a bit attacking him. i agree with maxpower in that it would help him to know where his beahviour is uppsetting you if you tell him what behaviour you do expect. it is very important that you are totally honest in how you feel when he does something you dont like and be honest about whether it will be tolerated or not.

yes, as I said I do definitely have a tendency to attack and bleat on a bit. But (here comes the justification bit!) it is often because he will not see my point of view and I get irate and upset. He is very sure of himself and his feelings and what sits well with him. That's fab in some ways, for example he is very good and advising me how to deal with difficult family members in a measured and really helpful way. But his point of view is (following the specific row on Sunday) 'I like a drink, I don't often stay out at the pub for so long, but on this occassion I did, what's the big deal?' And on one level he's right. Tho his drinking is another issue, it's not off the scale, but it's not on it either!

I think the feedback sandwich might tie me in knots a bit!!

Do you think it might have something to do with him working from home? Does he enjoy it? Does he find it isolating? He may find it a bit emasculating being the one who is at home all the time (albeit that he's working) while you fill the more traditional male role of going out to work? Hence he might feel he needs to assert his masculinity by not being disturbed by the wife/kids when he's doing blokey things like being in the pub or watching the football. I'm not condoning his behaviour, just wondering if that might be at the root of the problem.

Also, I know as a homeworker, that it's quite difficult to adjust from being at home on your own through the day in a very quiet environment that you have total control over, to having everyone in the house making loads of noise and mess. I get really fed up on a Monday morning when everyone clears off to work/school and I've got my job to do PLUS a complete bomb site of a house to deal with/shopping to do/washing/ironing/dogs to walk etc etc

Maybe he's just trying to reclaim some 'me' time. I can sympathise with that!!

If I received that letter it would probably not put me in a conciliatory mood. Certainly your dh has been unreasonable, but like others have said, to get the best result from your letter you need to write more factually, 'when you said X it made me feel like Y' type phrasing. e.g. instead of "it was about you stating arrogantly that X", try "when you said X, it made me feel like you didn't respect me", or whatever. Also other little bits of phrasing like "Yes I know this is a positive, but..." sound like you're brushing off the positive, "as you seem to think" and "for some reason" sound a bit sarcastic and will rub him up the wrong way. Instead of summing it up as "this deluded 'I'm the man of the house, I'll do what I want and what I say goes' attitude.", explain like you did to us how you believe discussing and resolving issues is better than forced apologies.

Otherwise you risk backing him into a corner where he will waste time denying that he is arrogant and deluded, instead of getting stuck into answering the real questions.

catwalker, v v interesting.

I don't think he finds it emasculating, I am pretty definite about that actually. But yes maybe the precious me time thing is true and is different to my need for me time. I'm MD of a mad busy company so my work is full on, but I DO have time for a coffee and a read on the train etc.

I do my bit round the house and clear up after breakfast, empty dishwasher etc before I go if I have time. And get up with the dc every day.
But his domestic jobs are endless once the kids are home - and the house is always immaculate when I get home bless him!! Oh I just want to stop all this nonsense.

x post. Having read your last post OP I think you should tell him what you told us, i.e. the good and bad effects on your r/ship of him being so sure of himself.

mary you are right and taking me through my email phrase by phrase is very helpful - bit shocked at how accusatory it is. And in particular right that he will then just be denying he's arrogant instead of us talking about the issues that matter here.

I'm glad that helped, worried I was sounding to school-teacherish!

'too' not 'to'. Some school-teacher!

Well for one thing, the letter would do well to start with saying you love him and he's an amazing etc. Add any other positives you've just said to us. These are simple facts: he does good things and you appreciate them. Put him in a more receptive mood for the less positive things to follow!

Next, you could explain why you are writing a letter (because you want to get your point across calmly instead of it becoming a rant, or whatever).

Thirdly, keep it to a few important points and make those as simple and non-confrontational as possible, leaving out words like "arrogant" or "all you cared about" as that is assigning feelings to him. It sounded like that to you (probably would have to me as well!), and maybe you do want to say so, but you can only answer for what you feel not for what he thought. Even the "'I'm the man of the house, I'll do what I want and what I say goes' attitude", if you are keen to get this point over, say it as if that's what it appears to you, not what it definitely is. How do you like it when someone says to you "All you care about is..."?

Word it as things you would like from him in future eg to let you know what time you can expect him home from the pub. Make it not just about what he did/didn't do that was wrong last time, but what you want to happen next time.

I agree you should not include apologies for your own actions in this letter as that's not what it's about, and yes, he probably would choose to look on it as a rather graceless apology rather than addressing the practical points.

Not quite sure where you're coming from on inviting your mother round while he was asleep; I'd have been mortal miffed too, if any of my household invited relatives around without discussing it with me! (XH used to wander around the house naked, so any unexpected visitors would have got a naaaaasty shock.) However, it is fair enough that you put your point of view here, how you felt that you acted reasonably and he reacted unreasonably. No doubt the door is open for him to write a letter in response, explaining his side in, I hope, equally reasonable terms. Then you've got some basis for informed discussion.

Good luck...

Er yeah, major cross-post there... just do what maryqueenofyachts says and it'll be fine!

thanks annie.
Re mum in the house...it's a long history...there is NO right time for my mum to come round, trust me! I was really trying to do the right thing by sneaking her in and out (what DO I sound like?!) ...again maybe I need to think from his point of view.
Yes I will explain while I'm mailing, def taking out the insults.
PLUS I've just realised he was probably genuinely amazed at my going off at him on Sunday night as from his straight forward male point of view, I was overreacting hugely to one incident. He's not to know I have other stuff frustrating me. Not that he'll particularly want to hear!
I still think, no matter what, he will say something along the lines of 'you need to apologise to me first'.
Should I then? It will stick in my throat like you wouldn't believe.

Wellll... would you be able to apologise for going over the top, without compromising on what you're asking him to do? As you say, all he knows is that you shouted at him, not what made you shout. However if he's just going to sit back smugly after you apologise, as he's got what he wants, it's not going to make things better in the long term; he'll just do something thoughtless again and you'll want to shout again!

Think I might say in firm terms, and in this order

"I do need you to ring me if you're going to be later than x o'clock

I accept that I should not have shouted at you"

May I suggest buying a book on assertiveness? They have lots of handy techniques for getting your own way, or compromising without losing power. The one I've got is called "A Woman In Your Own Right", by Anne Dickson.

Laughing at sneaking mother into the house - with a coat over her head, like in high-profile court cases?!

Actually I still like your email - it's very honest! Sometimes honesty is taken away when you trawl through a draft with a fine toothed comb (the mood/emotion). But I get what everyone else is saying - the trick is trying to get the balance right.