Jealousy

[NorhamGardens]

Wasn't sure where to post this, it's a bit complicated but I'll try to explain. (Sort of about my relationship with myself and some other women).

I don't feel good about myself at the moment and seem to increasingly struggle with friendships. I am a good person, in that I am good hearted, can be a bit chatty and self absorbed but know that I am fun and fairly decent. I am also pretty loyal. I am a bit of a natural loner but there are females on the edge of my circle I'd like to get to know but even when I try I never nudge them in it doesn't work out somehow.

We had a work event last week which brought things to a head. It was about partly about branding and age discrimination and all the branches came together for an active demonstration. I was in the 40 plus group, I am 40. Some of my colleagues were in the 20 plus group. Turns out the 20 something group were 100% women and stunning, vibrant, slightly bolshy (in a good way) and just well, so much 'better' than me.

The points I made were largely ignored by the men in my group, until another man reiterated them and then they were taken as 'good points, well made'. I realised that men no longer see me in the way they did and I am becoming invisible. I saw the way they reacted to the younger women and felt very old and undesirable.

It seems sometimes to be the elephant in the room that being gorgeous opens doors and increases your life chances. Society in particular now seems to value 'looks' and style over substance.

Being respected and valued at work is one thing and being 'desired' is another I realise. I suppose, if I am honest, what hurts me more is the not being found attractive any longer.

I look with critical eyes in the mirror and notice all my imperfections. I notice my bulges and feel a degree of self loathing. The beginnings of wrinkles, greying hair, spider veins. I saw how the 20 somethings viewed the 40 somethings at this event and realise how horribly ancient they assume we are. I found myself looking at one gorgeous 20 something girl in particular, a natural, tall beauty with an amazing body with a natural confidence. I am ashamed to say I felt very jealous. DP came to pick me up later and she was part of a group that joined me us for a drink.

The men had eyes on stalks and I was sidelined and ignored, like the way a 'Mum' or a 'Gran' might be by a group of young lads. Guess I realised I am sexy and attractive no longer. That hurts. DP also said that he didn't find her attractive (he must have been lying) this makes it worse somehow.

I realise that I look pretty good for my age all told really, I have 3 kids and juggle a job and being a Mum pretty well most of the time. Thing is I've never had the confidence I should have had, even when I was in my 20s. I think that other people see some sort of diseased gnome rather than an attractive woman and always have done. I was a very unattractive child and shunned a bit early in life because of this and this has never left me.

People say that women in their 40s should realise that their time of being found attractive is past, they've had their time in the sun. Thing is I feel I never did, I was always found lacking in this respect. Worse than that it's only going to get worse, I am going to be an old hag or crone in the next 20 years and even more invisible and haggard. The menopause also fills me with dread, a dried up husk I'll become then I fear.

I realise a woman's worth should not be tied up so much in how she looks and realise that sounds horribly vain. Some of my friends haven't been lucky enough to even get to their mid 40s and I should remember life is a gift.

Ironically I think that others, in the past, thought me cocky and conceited and then would put me down telling me I wasn't as attractive as others etc. I would sometimes be a bit OTT to try and compensate for my perceived 'diseased gnomeness' if that make sense? I was always thought of as 'quite pretty' on a good day but people would often look back again at me and say 'nah, not really' and it used to hurt. I suppose I should have been grateful for even being 'ok'. I always wanted to be more than average in all areas but that's all I am really. I am not clever enough to have pursued the job/s I really wanted either.

Why can't I just accept myself and morph into invisible Auntydom with good grace? Why can't I value the other more important things in my life and my achievements?

I feel like I've become increasingly critical of my work and my intelligence too. That 'not good enough' for anyone or anything feeling is a monster that I have to keep under control all the time. I don't volunteer for things and projects at work as the critic on my shoulder - the whole time - tells me I am basically a bit thick and what if people realise this?

I am trying to get a couple of sizes smaller, although a healthy, although 'high end' BMI. I want to be like the young 20 something girls but DP says it isn't realistic that I'll ever get there. (He's not putting me down, actually says I look great as I am).

I want to be a good role model for my kids and won't be if I can't accept getting older with good grace. I am ashamed to say that I felt incredibly jealous of the gorgeous girl in the pub.

If you've stayed with this long then thanks. Sorry for being so self absorbed but can't talk about this at all IRL.

Yes, you sound very self-absorbed and that is unattractive in itself

Although I can identify with some of your feelings (I am 40+), you would do well to count your blessings and get on with your life

I, for one, don't fancy the alternative

Neither do I.

I do volunteer for various charity projects, one in particular is very close to my heart. This helps and I get a lot of personal pleasure from it. I hope I am not quite as self centered as I might have sounded in post (although it is a weakness). Thing is I was eaten up at this event and have found this happening more, I can't tell anyone about how I feel and I feel like I am increasingly at war with myself. What would be a sensible coping strategy when the self pitying/absorbed demon strikes?

I do know a bit how you feel.

I was, (trumpet blowing) v good looking in my teens and twenties, used to turn heads etc.

I now am 47, chunky, greying hair, don't do stuff like facials, nails or anything like that but it is important to still be able to "scrub up" when necessary.

Lots of 40 plus women aren't naturally beautiful, they may not have fab bone structure or striking eyes but they look pretty good because they dress in clothes that suit their shape, they get their hair done regularly & generally make an effort.

Look at the cast of Desperate Housewives. All over 40 (except Eva) & all look gorgeous, but I bet without makeup & hair they wouldn't look much better than your average woman.

I think you need to stop even attempting to compete with 20 somethings, work out what your best features are and work with them.

Wow that was a long start to a thread - used to think I went on a bit on MN with long posts but not anymore!

I can't really relate to that over 40-not being noticed thing. I am not particularly good looking but I don't feel 'overlooked' for younger women. I would say that younger women are often not taken very seriously and that must by annoying.

Sorry got a bit carried away re: Length .

I think some of it might be that I feel my days of being able to have children will soon be over and it feels like it's come too quickly somehow and I will be moving on to the next stage of my life before I am ready. I am very lucky to have the children I have, I know. Also I'd have liked a bigger family but DP not keen and I know my time is running out.

Not sure if that's key in the way I feel or not?

I do try to look my best and play up my best features but feel like society really mocks middle aged women who do this. Lots of vitriol aimed at the Terri Hatchers and the Kylies for not accepting themselves as they should. In other words to ditch the plastic surgery and botox and embrace middle age and relaxed seat pants

One the questions of yourself that you might find helpful is "Do I really like women?"

Mine is the opposite experience to yours. When I was younger, I had some trouble convincing people to take my points seriously because I seemed to fit the "head turner" category. It was therefore something of a relief getting older and building up years of professional experience, because I found I was treated with more dignity and courtesy by men and women alike.

My response in some of the situations you describe would be different. These would be my thoughts: The younger gorgeous women in that group being taken seriously at work? = Thank goodness times have changed. Good for them.

The men overlooking my point of view? = God what arses, I must challenge that behaviour. No-one's going to take the credit for my good ideas.

My DH saying he didn't find the young woman attractive? = he's telling the truth, I don't find 20 year old men attractive either. But we can both say that someone of any age is physically beautiful, or good-looking.

I haven't found that people have treated me with less courtesy and respect since getting older and I don't feel invisible. I do despair of the way women judge women on their appearance in a way that men never judge eachother. I have certainly been in the presence of women who I know are "checking me out" and it always makes me want to back away from them.

You see the reason I asked the question about "do you really like women?" is that often I have found the women who worry about this sort of thing, tend to judge other women quite harshly themselves, noticing looks and grooming in others before anything else. They sort of do a mental sum when meeting a new woman or potential friend, in terms of their attractiveness - where is she on a scale compared to me? Other women (like me) sense this you see - and tend to back away, which might explain why those on your outer circle are resisting your efforts.

Agree that your dh may well have been telling the truth

That is an excellent point, wwifn

I find I do like people, other women and enjoy being thought of as a "woman's woman"

I don't categorise them against myself

I am myself...they can take a running jump with their thoughts about me so I expect they could with mine about them

Of course, it is human to form opinions about others...but you are on a losing ticket to misery if you constantly find yourself wanting in comparison to them

If MN has taught me one thing, it is that no-one's life is perfect...and the personal demons that other women battle with behind closed doors makes me glad to be me, tbh

WWIFN I think you've made a good point and you've got me thinking.

I think I do what you describe to an extent. Someone on here described it as an evolutionary thing on one level. Men as a scarce resource or something and we are in competition for them. I sense other women doing it to me and I do it back to them, or vice versa sometimes if I am brutally honest.

Thinking more about it I don't find I do this with every woman I meet. Some, often those that are extremely blunt for some reason, I find I can get to know very well and they get to see the 'real' me.

It's not an excuse but I was bullied extremely badly when younger, I was told I was ugly every single day and physically attacked (not to a huge extent) every day for about 4 years. This may be at the root of it, I never 'believed' in myself on any level.

I am also not a nasty person, really quite deep and not a bitch or gossip but I am probably giving that impression aren't I?

Thanks lots for me to think about, I appreciate it.

Sigh. Men have waaay too much power. Or some men. And sometimes, sadly, we women hand it to them.

You have to make a huge effort and get over this equation of worth with ability to attract the attention of men - and sexual attention at that.

You sound as though you're having a huge crisis in confidence, brought about by suddenly finding yourself in the middle years. You will get through it - and emerge far wiser. You're finding your way to who you are, now.

Society is a powerful force, and, yes, it can does women after their youth. But you don't want to be elided. So listen to what your feelings are telling you, and resist. You're not just doing it for you but, ironically, for the younger women sitting in the room with you.

Agree with what other posters have said - young women, attractive women, can have enormous difficulties getting taken seriously.

On the other hand, a sexist world is not good to middle aged women. In fact, C21st culture seems to have dreamed up some peculiarly brilliant and hideous ways of counteracting the power women, and middle aged women in particular, have achieved politically and socially.

Swings and roundabouts. But look at the common denominator there ... . And ponder why that might be.

I'm thinking sexism along with the ageism. Remember - sexism is often structural - and far bigger than the conscious actions of individual men (and women).

And it makes me sad that your self-doubt and sadness is caused by a sexist, ageist society. ie. has a political cause that you have internalised into all these bad feelings about yourself.

It's a tough one - any woman in her middle years will recognise it's outlines - but you have to be strong. And don't take the "jealous of younger women" route - it's really a dead end.

Also, it's worth remembering Scheherezade won her life with words, stories and wisdom - and as an older woman, that is your terrain.

This is all a bit cursory - but yours was quite a long post, covering many issues. I think books and books have been written on many of the things you write!!

One last point - evolution.

Forget the whole evolution thing.

Yes, yes, evolution is real but

If evolution (in the very simple sense) was all there was ... how the Rubik's cube?

The fact is, we have evolved the intelligence to reflect, change, intervene ... culture ... artistry.

Just because a flat interpretation of the natural world suggests certain things should be normalised, it doesn't mean they have to be. We're humans - the "what if....?" species.

"People say that women in their 40s should realise that their time of being found attractive is past, they've had their time in the sun"

do they? I wouldn't listen to these people and neither, I suspect, would babes the likes of Kylie, Jennifer Aniston, Jennifer Lopez etc.

Yes, I know they have armies of personal trainers and stylists and are airbrushed to within an inch of their lives but everyone knows they are all on the worng side of 40 if they didn't ooze sex appeal that would not make any difference.

Being attractive is not just about youth and beauty - look at Angelina Jolie - one of the most beautiful woman in the world yet deeply insecure and screwed up and there is an unattractiveness about her. See also posh spice - young , rich, pretty but walks around like a starved, hunched, miserable old woman.

I am also on the wrong side of 40 and feel I am starting to look it but that is largely my own fault - I have good genes but am inclined to over indulgence...

Anyway the blokes at your work event were not hanging on the 20 somethings' words because they were taking them seriously - fuck no! - they were thinking about shagging them. That is what men do. Yeah its irritating if you are there to see it, but in the grand scheme of things its not really that important is it??.

What is important is your own self esteem and the way you carry yourself. You are a woman in her prime. Get a nice flattering hair cut, get some flattering clothes, do a bit of exercise and ravage your DP from time to time. Smile and look happy - it takes years off. There's nowt as sexy as a woman who is getting plenty!

and there is nowt as unsexy as a woman who moans to her bloke about how unattractive she is. Be careful - he might take you at your word!!

Now I think I might just go and take some of my own advice...

It never helps to compare your insides to someone else's outsides. I think that is an AA thing. Or, as my dad keeps saying 'you can never see the torn lining of another person's coat'.

I find it hard to sympathise with your post because your life situation seems to be what a lot of people would envy. You have a secure family and what sounds like a loving partner to support you.

I think you are losing perspective. We all get old, we are all going to wither and die. If you base your self worth on whether or not others find you attractive, this would seem to be a sad situation. If you can't talk about this in rl would it help to go to counselling?

oh and look into some counselling for yourself - the bullying you were subject to has done lasting damage which can be reversed

Some really intelligent and thought provoking responses again, many thanks. Animula I've taken away a lot from your post.

I did have some counselling about the bullying in my early 20s. It helped a bit but I am not sure the damage is permanently reversible. Others had worse and I think it's something that stays with you to certain extent. It does give me an empathy with others who have gone through similar and I have found that I can reach out to some of my DCs friends that have issues in this area and hopefully help.

. I can relate to this. I don't think you're a self-absorbed ugly old witch at ALL. As Animula says, a big part of why you are feeling bad is the sexism/agism of the society we currently live in. I have days when I remember and am more aware of the fact that I have lost out in the past through being neither pretty nor 'feminine' enough and that can make me temporarily sad and bitter, particularly as I am really never going to win points for mainstream sex appeal again, I am 45 with the face I deserve after 30 years of partying.
However, most of the time I can remember that I have a lot of good mates who appreciate me for who I am, that being a stroppy strange-looking, bizarrely attention seeker has quite often served me well enough wit hthe sort of people whose admiration and liking I actually want - and every now and again I actually find myself in an environment where I can pull a fit young man by virtue of being a mucky old woman.
CHin up OP. Blues like this do pass. You might even want to gobble some B6 or Efamol to shift them quicker ie it could be a hormonal dip that's making you feel this way.

Is there anything about being older that you enjoy so you can focus on that to cheer you up OP? I was just sitting this afternoon in a school concert eyeing up the very tasty middle aged vicar, thinking - you know, the thing I love about being older is the sexual confidence. I feel a sense of power sexually in my 40's that I never did in my 20s. This is despite the fact that I was slim then with no sign of anything as horrid as a muffin top whereas now I am bit flabby, too saggy, the 'chunky' someone else referred to, and getting wrinkly - but that doesn't seem to reduce the sense I have of sexual confidence. And that can be very empowering - I have sexual fantasies going on in my head, that noone else knows about and might not believe me capable of! I love that.

Do you get any of those sort of positives about being older?

lol at the vicar
the thing i like about my 40s is having more to offer than a nice ass, and not to be judged on the ass is a relief
these 'gorgeous' 20 y olds prob care a lot more about what other people think than you imagine
I know i did at 20 - it's a relief not to mind so much now!

and if you are a beautiful young woman it must be doubly horrid to age and lose that... you only have to look at the young female celerities undergoing necessary cosmetic surgery

whereas the man I am currently lusting after is the Swedish actor who plays Wallander who is a crumpled man in his late fifties at least...

Oh yes Norham: don't forget the awful crashing comedown suffered by some of those who were wildly up themselves in their 20s because they were pretty (that's basically thin, young and blonde with reasonably clear skin as opposed to the sort of good-bones beauty that will last) and therefore never bothered to develop much of a personality. Because if your prettiness depends on being young then it's ephemeral.

SolidGoldBrass I fear that may be me you've just described. On a good day I was 'quite pretty' and perhaps even pretty when I was around 20. I didn't feel it and tried to overcompensate thus giving the impression of being 'up myself' to some I am sure.

See in the press this morning lots of vitriol aimed at Kylie for daring to show a slight muffin top, aged neck and less than perfect make-up less face to the world. She is beginning to look say some, gasp 42, her age.

Thanks again for the replies. My mother's self worth is tied up with how she looks and I think some of this has rubbed off onto me. If a man doesn't flirt in some way with her during the course of the day or someone admire her in some way or her outfit she will go inside herself and try the families patience. In fact if no one comments positively on her outfit she has been known to never wear it again and shun social occasions going forward. She has serious issues from her childhood that cause this behaviour.

It seems sometimes that we haven't moved forward as a society in terms of valuing the older woman. The older woman is seen as a 'cougar' at best by many. So many comment on the 'ugly' woman in any group, look at the negative publicity about Mel C in the Spice Girls in the early 90s - arguably the most talented of them all.

I was struck the other day by how my sisters daughters and their social circle value 'prettiness'. They post photos of Facebook and those that are seen as being the best looking seem to quickly become the more popular with the boys and peers. The form seems to be to post the best photo you can find and then hundreds seem to comment saying how stunning you are and you say 'no I am actually very ordinary' and so forth.

My sister's daughter is 14 (extremely bright, articulate etc) and her class recently had a project. They had to choose the person who had made a huge impact on society, overcome difficulties and made a real difference in the world. Who did they choose? Mother Theresa? Nelson Mandela? No, most of the class chose Cheryl Cole.

When I questioned them as to why they said because she overcame great odds to be a huge star. It would have been all too easy to descend into drugs like others on her Estate. She even stuck it out at ballet school I was told despite bullying etc. (I checked this one, as hadn't realised she'd been at the Royal Ballet School, found out she actually did a few weeks and left).

Let's face it, she's pretty, some would say stunning and the girls worship and value her so highly because of this mainly. This has also been an HUGE factor in her success IMO.

I was very disappointed by so many choosing her above others but maybe that's being a teenager and others may disagree and say she is indeed a star who has overcome the odds and makes a huge impact on people's lives?

At the risk of diverting the thread completely, I can see some justification for admiring Cheryl Cole if most of her peers from school are either on drugs or on benefits. Though my reluctant admiration for her is due to the way in which she overcame allegations of being a drunken racist chav brawling in a nightclub loo - most sleb wannabes would have been completely sunk by that. Indeed, Jade Goody had to die of cancer to rehabilitate herself after similar crap behaviour.

Maybe there's an interesting discussion to be had with teens about how the kids-from-sink-estates-who-become-pop-stars actually managed it. Because, FFS, anyone who has ever tried to achieve fame or success in the music business (or modelling, acting or fashion for that matter) knows that it's nearly 80% LUCK rather than talent and hard work that actually count here.

SolidGoldBrass - just have posted about Cheryl on the Unreasonable section as I am so shocked about her being seen as up there with Mother Theresa in terms of changing the world etc.

You must have read my mind as I've just mentioned the Cheryl versus Jade allegedly 'racist' incidents.

My view is that Cheryl rose from obscurity mainly because of her beauty. Perhaps not the most talented singer or dancer she is very decorative and that counts for a lot in the world of TV etc.

My view is that Cheryl was more easily forgiven as so many girls want to look like her, they worship her beauty more than her talent. A misguided beauty who throws a racially motivated punch can be forgiven and absolved of her sins.

A rather more unfortunate looking dim wit (public perception at the time) is less likely to be forgiven.

I have often thought that Jade's gripes with Shilpa were about Shilpa's rather annoying and princessy behaviour. Perhaps Jade had a point? Jade wasn't articulate and she hit out in the way of her peers/used the language she knew to express her frustration. Yes her words were racist but I think her intent was to express her extreme frustration about Shilpa's perceived annoying characteristics (nothing to do with Shilpa's race). Does that make sense?

perhaps Jade's issues also had something also to do with her insecurity about her looks and Shilpa's beauty?

I really don't get the Cherl thing - it seems entirely built on smoke and mirrors to me. Yes she appears to scrub up well but this is almost entirely due to being young, extremely thin and having enough money to paint a coating of beauty onto a perfectly ordinary face. She doesn't appear to have any discerable talent at all. If she was still on that council estate no one would look twice at her.

And yet some eejit rapper or other was quoted in the tabloids as saying that Robert de Niro was going to mentor her into becoming a top hollywood actress. OK, maybe he didn't say that but that the scenario could even arise is incredible to me. She can't act or sing or dance. She is not particularly beautiful.

In fact she is really just a much less pneumatic version of Jordan - yet Jordan is seen as a joke.

Is it her ordinariness that is behind all this adulation?. Is the idea that if one talentless ordinarily pretty girl can get to where she is then perhaps we all can?

sorry to hijack!

Good points msboogie. Jealousy about Shilpa's looks and intelligence/education might also have been drivers.

Interesting you mention the actress thing. I've always thought Angelina Jolie an indifferent actress. I thought her performance in the Changeling was pretty bland. She was hauntingly beautiful in the part but it seemed to me that her script could have been condensed into a single page of A4.

Perhaps I am missing something.

Mind you being on the silver screen in the past was usually about being unusually attractive first and foremost.