Jealousy

[NorhamGardens]

Wasn't sure where to post this, it's a bit complicated but I'll try to explain. (Sort of about my relationship with myself and some other women).

I don't feel good about myself at the moment and seem to increasingly struggle with friendships. I am a good person, in that I am good hearted, can be a bit chatty and self absorbed but know that I am fun and fairly decent. I am also pretty loyal. I am a bit of a natural loner but there are females on the edge of my circle I'd like to get to know but even when I try I never nudge them in it doesn't work out somehow.

We had a work event last week which brought things to a head. It was about partly about branding and age discrimination and all the branches came together for an active demonstration. I was in the 40 plus group, I am 40. Some of my colleagues were in the 20 plus group. Turns out the 20 something group were 100% women and stunning, vibrant, slightly bolshy (in a good way) and just well, so much 'better' than me.

The points I made were largely ignored by the men in my group, until another man reiterated them and then they were taken as 'good points, well made'. I realised that men no longer see me in the way they did and I am becoming invisible. I saw the way they reacted to the younger women and felt very old and undesirable.

It seems sometimes to be the elephant in the room that being gorgeous opens doors and increases your life chances. Society in particular now seems to value 'looks' and style over substance.

Being respected and valued at work is one thing and being 'desired' is another I realise. I suppose, if I am honest, what hurts me more is the not being found attractive any longer.

I look with critical eyes in the mirror and notice all my imperfections. I notice my bulges and feel a degree of self loathing. The beginnings of wrinkles, greying hair, spider veins. I saw how the 20 somethings viewed the 40 somethings at this event and realise how horribly ancient they assume we are. I found myself looking at one gorgeous 20 something girl in particular, a natural, tall beauty with an amazing body with a natural confidence. I am ashamed to say I felt very jealous. DP came to pick me up later and she was part of a group that joined me us for a drink.

The men had eyes on stalks and I was sidelined and ignored, like the way a 'Mum' or a 'Gran' might be by a group of young lads. Guess I realised I am sexy and attractive no longer. That hurts. DP also said that he didn't find her attractive (he must have been lying) this makes it worse somehow.

I realise that I look pretty good for my age all told really, I have 3 kids and juggle a job and being a Mum pretty well most of the time. Thing is I've never had the confidence I should have had, even when I was in my 20s. I think that other people see some sort of diseased gnome rather than an attractive woman and always have done. I was a very unattractive child and shunned a bit early in life because of this and this has never left me.

People say that women in their 40s should realise that their time of being found attractive is past, they've had their time in the sun. Thing is I feel I never did, I was always found lacking in this respect. Worse than that it's only going to get worse, I am going to be an old hag or crone in the next 20 years and even more invisible and haggard. The menopause also fills me with dread, a dried up husk I'll become then I fear.

I realise a woman's worth should not be tied up so much in how she looks and realise that sounds horribly vain. Some of my friends haven't been lucky enough to even get to their mid 40s and I should remember life is a gift.

Ironically I think that others, in the past, thought me cocky and conceited and then would put me down telling me I wasn't as attractive as others etc. I would sometimes be a bit OTT to try and compensate for my perceived 'diseased gnomeness' if that make sense? I was always thought of as 'quite pretty' on a good day but people would often look back again at me and say 'nah, not really' and it used to hurt. I suppose I should have been grateful for even being 'ok'. I always wanted to be more than average in all areas but that's all I am really. I am not clever enough to have pursued the job/s I really wanted either.

Why can't I just accept myself and morph into invisible Auntydom with good grace? Why can't I value the other more important things in my life and my achievements?

I feel like I've become increasingly critical of my work and my intelligence too. That 'not good enough' for anyone or anything feeling is a monster that I have to keep under control all the time. I don't volunteer for things and projects at work as the critic on my shoulder - the whole time - tells me I am basically a bit thick and what if people realise this?

I am trying to get a couple of sizes smaller, although a healthy, although 'high end' BMI. I want to be like the young 20 something girls but DP says it isn't realistic that I'll ever get there. (He's not putting me down, actually says I look great as I am).

I want to be a good role model for my kids and won't be if I can't accept getting older with good grace. I am ashamed to say that I felt incredibly jealous of the gorgeous girl in the pub.

If you've stayed with this long then thanks. Sorry for being so self absorbed but can't talk about this at all IRL.

Hi Norham

I found your post really interesting and thought-provoking and it's taken me hours to write a response! The thread has moved on since so forgive me for harking back to the OP.

I will leave others to do the get a haircut/go on a diet/buy a purple top kind of advice. IME this type of realisation comes to us all, if you can delay it by revamping yourself, congratulations - see you in 5 years.

Mine is the opposite - develop other attributes to make sure people take you seriously at work, lik dignity and presence. Develop a commanding tone and personal authority. Quell them with a glance.

The sexism/ageism in society is a big factor here and IMHO you are not rejecting it strongly enough. Seriously, if you want to feel good about being a woman over 40, NEVER read articles and comments about Kylie or indeed any woman in the Daily Mail unless you are feeling really strong. I saw it too

And never read what teenagers think about Cheryl Cole. In my day we all thought Bros were good musicians?.we got through it. Mother Teresa died in 1997 and is never on TV, why would you expect anyone under 35 to relate to her?

With your work story, you seem to be confusing the rapt attention paid to a colleague by another colleague who is thinking "what an interesting idea", with the rapt attention paid to a woman by a man thinking PHWOAR! They are completely different.

The invisibility we get when we are no longer widely thought of as physically attractive is also an opportunity. To be taken seriously, because along with your male colleagues, you can appear sexlessly powerful. To be out of the race, for people to speak more honestly to you because they think of you as in some way "neutral". You could have such a great time at work building relationships with these young women and understanding how things are for them, compared to how things were when you were their age. You write so well, you could even blog it. However young and lovely they are, the wisdom that comes with age just can't be faked - this is why older people don't always find young ones attractive. Beautiful yes, but not always attractive.

(I also get the feeling that your work event felt very sexually charged to you, but possibly to other people it didn't - they may have been more focused on the discussions and information that was being shared.)

You have your DH and your kids. You are not in the young glamorous race any more - and do you really want to be? It's not as though you are single and out in pubs and clubs with them trying to get off with the tallest richest alpha-est male in the place. Why on earth does it matter if most men in youy office would put you after half your colleagues in shaggability order? (What order would you put them in?) As long as your DH finds you attractive and desirable, that's all that counts. And your self-esteem of course, but I think now is the time for you to revisit and perhaps try and change your self esteem so it doesn't depend on your looks.

The most frequently photographed older woman is Helen Mirren - basically "she's old but it's OK because she's still attractive and sexy". Which is why this is about sexism as well as ageism. Men have plenty of role models that are not about looks, but there are far fewer if any for women. Mentioning Nelson Mandela's appearance in any sort of negative way would just make you sound like an arse. Women's appearance is always relevant, to be discussed, to be picked over, even if the discussion ends with "but I still think she's great". Camila Batmanghelidjh is the only female equivalent I can think of.

AllarmBells thank you for your post. You've boosted me no end and so much for me to digest and reflect on here.

I wanted to come back and say OP, that I would have probably felt the same way as you did in that work event. In terms of feeling jealous of the pretty young things and the attention they were receiving I would be acutely, painfully aware of it.

But I wouldn't have let it affect how I felt about myself in the work context because your attractiveness is (or should be)separate to your professional self, in your own mind at least. I know that the research says that more attractive people do better in interviews etc but how far does that go really? if you took to to its logical conclusion the world would be run by all the young gorgeous people and it sure as hell ain't!

If I felt I had been ignored by the men (or that my statements had been ignored until reiterated by a man) I would be looking to address that. Men certainly do that kind of thing in the workplace but clearly women who get ahead and get to be the boss are able to find a way to make men look up to them.

Some kind of assertiveness training or communications skills course perhaps? with the bill foot by your employers of course!

and while I am on a roll this theory is rather interesting...

Msboogie said the same as me in about a quarter of the words!!

Thanks Norham, glad you found the post helpful. I reread my overlong post and it sounds very "do this, do that" which is not how I meant it. Its something my head did for me, IYSWIM, after I had DD at age 36. Basically, after a working life of being very focused on how attractive my colleagues found me, when I returned to work after ML, fatter and visibly aged, I found I could not care less, it had just gone away. Then I thought back about how my feelings seemed to have changed....So I really identified with your post, but I never did what I'm recommending you do and consciously changed my mindset, I was lucky in that it just happened.

Msboogie, love that theory but hated the article "when women talk it sounds like a honey-do list"!!! . Mrs Thatcher had voice lessons to get her voice lower, to improve her presence/authority.

AllarmBells - I loved what you wrote.

(sorry for butting in ND)

thanks animula!!! I nearly deleted it, I thought you would all think I was barking!

interesting to read this. I have similar jealousy returning to work after mat leave, esepcially seeing younger "babes" get promoted. due to their efforts I must say, but also due to the fact that the MD wants to fxxk them! I have been struggling a teensy bit myself

some very good advice here.

I like what allarmbells said, there are phases in life and the "young babe" phase is over, work with what you've got.

I have no idea what a honey-do list even is!!

but I have heard that theory expounded as a reason why it is better for men to teach boys as their ears can't listen to female voices as well as male ones...

Norham: Yes, I thought along those lines re the Jade/Shilpa thing - Jade (and the probably more revolting Danielle and whatsername who joined in on the bullying) were certainly obnoxious to Shilpa Shetty, but Shilpa was fairly annoying, irrespective of any race issues, and did give the impression of rather milking her sudden elevation to sainted martyr when she was, really, just another pretty girl of not-particularly-spectacular talent herself.

I think there may be something of this as a reason why so many of these passably-pretty, only-slightly-talented girls who achieve fame are either complete PITAS or go from one drug-addled breakdown to another - deep down (or not even deep down) they know that there are billions more girls their own age - or younger - who are equally pretty and can sing and dance a bit too - that they are utterly replaceable and there is very little they can do to change that.

I'm a passable singer. Just lately I've been singing a bit in front of people again, and enjoying it - I always wanted to be a rock star but TBH I haven't ever had a great voice and having always been chubby, oddly-dressed and stroppy with it kind of meant it wasn't going to happen. Now I am finding some joy in just singing for the hell of it and it not mattering that I'm not 'pretty' enough to be picked up and made temporarily famous: there are benefits that come with getting on a bit.

I don't think once you hit middle age you are no longer attractive (sorry, double negative there). You are attractive to middle-aged men. I can look at my daughter's male friends and think how beautiful they are, but I don't fancy them in the slightest. I would if I were 20 but now thinking about them sexually would be creepy. And admittedly some men run off with girls young enough to be their daughters, but I think many more think the same way as me.

I know we compare ourselves with how we looked when we are younger, but I don't believe others do. So be proud of being an attractive 40-year old!

really interesting thread.

marks place

will come back and say more when i have more time, have got to go out now.

norham gardens

I feel very similar in a lot of ways to you.

I was rather an unattractive child, at best, a bit "funny looking" and as a teenager I was not at all popular with boys, I was badly bullied and only had a handful of "friends," most of which weren't actually that nice to me ...my mum and dad were never very positive about me, I tried really hard at school but nothing waas ever good enough. My mum was always obsessed with dieting and how she looked and would call herself "old", "fat" and "ugly" (she was neither) and go on about how much prettier / slimmer other women were than her. Both my parents seemed to value looks and would often say how pretty other kids were (ie my friends, their friends kids, my cousins etc) but never really complimented me on anything really.

It all changed when I left school and started college. I seemed to "grow into" my looks, I suppose, and suddenly noticed I was getting male attention left right and centre. I also had made some better friends than the ones I had at school, and was really happy. I had gone from the one no one noticed to the one that would make heads turn everywhere I went. I just couldn't understand it but needless to say, I started to enjoy it. I would bump into people I hadn't seen since my teens and they would visibly do a double take and say how amazing I looked "now".

Once I started work, I was always the centre of attention with the men, but unfortunately, women never, ever liked me, most probably because of this. I tried so hard to make friends at work, I was always nice to everyone and worked hard, but ended up leaving several jobs because I was basically being bullied by women. But I didn't actually care that much because secretly I was kind of proud that they found me such a threat

I am now 30 and have 2 small DCs. Having the kids has been very very hard for me to cope with as I have had to cope with my body changing, my flat tummy is now stretch marked and will always be slightly sticky-out and my gravity defying boobs are sadly now rather deflated and I generally look more tired and a little lined. But I love and adore them and would never change them for the world. However, like the OP, I find myself looking at younger, slimmer, prettier women and seriously hating them its horrible and negative and I wish I could stop doing it.

I now feel like time is ticking away very fast for me, I loved being "attractive" in my 20's and took all the admiring looks and compliments for granted. Especially as I had been such an ugly duckling.

I have been with DP just over 3 years and met him in what I would consider was, my "prime" really, when I was 26. He was (and still is) gorgeous but he couldn't believe I had agreed to go out with him (and told me that every day for about a year! ) and would akways go on about how "gorgeous" I was, and he still does. But now I feel that I my looks are starting to fade a bit and wonder whether he will still be so besotted with me when I am not quite the "prize" I once was. he doesnt give me any reason to think that he is only with me for my looks, we have loads in common and are really in love, its just me being paranoid I think.

And the most scary thing is, I am only 30 and feel like this what the hell am I going to be like when I get to mid 30's, 40's, is it going to get worse? I don't want it to, I want to stop feeling like this. And I do agree that society places so much emphasis on youth and beauty in women, which really doesnt help. It seems that in this looks based society the biggest sin a woman can commit is get old

cocopear - the thing is, we never see the people we love as they see themselves. When you love someone you can always see the beauty in them. As long as he loves you, your DH will always see you as the beauty he married - even when you are 80.

Northam Gardens

I have just read your thread (eventually!)
and it got me thinking about how I feel about being 45 (Yikes only last year I was 32 I swear!)

I don't think you are paticulary self absorbed tbh. I think a lot of people have a crisis moment and it sounds like you are in the middle of yours now.

I think you have suddenly started lacking in confidence . You said you have become increasingly critical of your work and don't put your self forward.

Ok sounds like a good time for a shake up.
Go out of your comfort zone and do something that scares you a little bit. You won't die.

Make your self interesting. Do something that you wnat to do. A few years ago I took up snowboarding and rock climbing. I was terrified. I am good at them now and people are initally surprised and then interested.

When someone nicks your ideas have the courage to go 'Oi I said that! weren't you listening!' Believe me it works. I know from expierence. They soon learn . It may be easy said than done but after you have done it a couple of times you won't have to do it again.
Don't envy or compete with the younger ones. They too will have their insecurities. There is not a big line in real life which states over 40 over here please. I went away a couple of weekends ago to Malmaisson with 9 friends. The youngest was 23 the oldest was 64. Everyone one of us had a great time because we are not in competition with each other, we are mates.

Make the best of yourself. Keep up to date with fashion but don't make yourself a copy of what the 20 year olds are wearing.

Make your life fun. Plan things, Plan stuff that is exciting and not normaly what you do.

Say yes to opportunites. Don't let age put you off doing things. Sometimes I'm the oldest one at Go Ape, Snow zone or where ever. It doesn't matter.

Not sure if this ramble helps. Hope so. Let me knkow how you get on but be brave and eenjoy your life what ever your age!!

cocobear - I can identify with SO much of what you say.

I used to be told I was 'ugly' almost daily and it took a middle aged man on my bus (not connected to the school) to jump in and tell the bullies that actually I wasn't ugly. I saw there was hope, as I'd long believed I was. Also probably something psychologically telling there as I had been 'validated' by an man.

I noticed in late teenage years there was a pecking order in that the pretty girls got the good looking boys. A good looking boy, actually one of the best looking boys in the school, once took a brief interest in me. I felt validated and when I didn't sleep with him and he moved on I felt it must be because I wasn't 'good' enough. Other girls noticed that this boy had chosen me and were aghast, how could he pick such a geek/ordinary girl? Only passably pretty at best.

A friend used to notice this 'pecking order' scenario going on with her cricket club. The first team ALWAYS had the best looking girls. None of this really matters or should matter in our adult lives but it's there somewhere inside us. We feel we have something to prove and this connects more than it should to how we look.

Someone said that middle aged men usually find middle aged women attractive. Not my experience, superficially at least they fancy the young, fit and fertile. Even my FIL sees himself as a young, virile man capable of having any women he wants, he's 76! He told me that he was running outside, he's still very fit, and saw this horrible old man in the window and was shocked to realise that's how he looks. He still tells young girls how beautiful they are etc. I've made him sound creepy now, he's not.

My MIL made a very sad remark the other day. She's brilliant pushing 70 and down to earth, a real role model for me, she had a brilliant career before she retired etc and was an amazing Mum too. I took a photo of her and a gorgeous cousin of mine at a party. She sighed and said 'Beauty and the beast'. The beast being her, a throw away remark? But it made me think how sad it was that she sees herself as a 'beast' on any level at all.

In that classic movie 'Shallow Hal', that I once had the misfortune to sit through on a plane, one of the characters makes the point that the ugly ducklings are 'easy prey'. If they are now hot they don't believe it in the way the ones that have been always pretty do so are ripe to be taken advantage of. I seemed to attract 'shallow' characters in my early 20s with no positive results, unsurprisingly.

Recently at a friend's dinner party one of the best looking men in our circle managed to upset me. I look vaguely like a celebrity and someone commented on it. He just stopped eating, threw down his fork and said 'her you have to be kidding! Norham Gardens is no where near as pretty'!! Ok, I should grow a thicker skin but this got to me. When he married a gorgeous, sweet, girl I thought, he'd have never been remotely interested in me as I simply wasn't attractive enough.

DP has always said he feels like the cat that got the cream getting me, as like you I was at my 'peak' as you put it when we got together. But I know it isn't only my outward appearance he likes, he talks about my other qualities as a Mum and a professional and I take heart from that. I can grow from there.

Upahill, I like the advice, particularly that I should have challenged the man that stole my ideas. I am open minded to new ideas and I would like to start up my own business in time, if I can find the courage. So thank you. All your advice has helped hugely and it really helps to know I am not the only one feeling like this!

To go back to the Cheryl thing, I read a comment today from a teenage about how Cheryl was a latter day replacement for Lady Diana. Cheryl is an icon as has escaped a tough upbringing on an estate. The new 'Queen of Hearts"?

Want to say so much on this but I just don't have time - and I said plenty on Tuesday!

upahill that was a fab post!

norham I definitely agree with upahill you should have challenged the man who stole your ideas. Back in the day, I used to say Sorry, did I miss something, are we in a Fast Show sketch? (Do you remember the Fast Show sketch? EXACTLY as you described in your OP.) It used to quite shock people when I said that and they realised it was exactly what had just happened.

Also, you should have sarcastically said "Oh, thanks very much!!!" to the guy who said you weren't (as) pretty. Even if you were being compared to Audrey Hepburn or someone totally fabulous, that was a mean remark.

I think you should start thinking of people who make comments like that as mean, and people who steal your ideas as out-of-order. Currently you are thinking of all these (men) as powerful, attractive people for whose approval you should be competing. I haven't seen their handsome faces or heard their brilliant work ideas, but they sound like a bunch of ignorant arseholes. It takes some practice to crack back at them, and I used to be accused of being scary, but I don't give a rat's behind. When I wasn't scary, guess what happened - they took my ideas and made judgmental comments on my looks. Same difference.

I don't need to do it any more and I think people think of me as friendly and helpful. I honestly don't know if that's because being assertive means they don't try it on, or because I now do a different sort of job where only I do my exact thing, so no-one else has my perspective and consequently I have to be listened to.

Love this thread and how it's gone two ways. Will be back over the weekend to talk about Cheryl, Diana and Jordan!

I thought of a woman who isn't judged on looks - Sharon Osbourne. I don't like all the swearing but she has actually managed to have a personality first and foremost, instead of an appearance.