Is it ever OK to tell a friend that they need to parent differently because they're making their child miserable?

[ScramblyEggsAndBeans]

I have a friend who I've known for years, and whose son is good friends with mine. I don't spend much time with her anymore, because I find her more full-on, stressed, snappy and shouty than I can handle, and DS has said he's frightened of her ... and I'll confess to feeling a bit deer-in-headlights around her too.

Lately, coinciding with her marriage getting into difficulty, I've noticed that every time we pick up her DS for a play, or drop him off, or pop over for whatever reason, she has nothing - really, nothing - positive to say to him. She shouts and barks orders at him, doesn't listen to what he feels/wants to do or talk with him to reach a compromise, swears at him (in the street!). It feels as though there's no love or warmth there at all - which of course there is (must be) deep down, but it's not showing.

And so of course he's coming back at her with hostility, arguing, refusing to do as he's told. And then she posts on Facebook about how difficult six-year-olds are - full of attitude, disrespect, demands (which is exactly how she is to him) - and a whole load of people post back and empathise and I find that really sad. She really does think he's the problem.

Meanwhile, her DS - when he's been at our house - has told us, unprompted, that he hates his mum, that she whinges and shouts at him all the time, that she's a liar, a crybaby, etc. Her son has started phoning us and asking to come over, without asking his mum first. Of course he shouldn't be doing this, but I think he's a bit desperate and trying to handle a difficult home situation in the only way he can think of. But of course he gets shouted at and punished for this too.

Is there any way I can gently tell her what her son's been saying - suggest that he needs more positive interaction and warmth from her - without sounding like a smug, interfering bitch? It's so difficult. I'd hate someone to tell me I'm fucking up my own DS (which I'm sure I am on some level, but hopefully not this much). And she's clearly stressed and unhappy and needs support too. I just find it so difficult to watch on as a lovely little boy gets crushed at home, and do nothing.

Any ideas? I'm popping out now, but will check back in later. Thanks.

hmm.....tread very very carefully indeed is my advice. Perhaps ask her (gently) if she is ok and if she says no, things are hard, ask her how you might be able to help support her. The key here is that she is not happy herself by the sounds of it. If that gets sorted, the rest (relationship with son) will follow. Please don't judge her - who knows, you might have a rough patch one day and need support yourself..

Oh GOD how very very difficult.

Um.

how about .... get the children to draw pictures of their mummy? If she's bad tempered all the time, the picture mummy might have an angry face.

This might work. Ds1 gave me a shock (and a wake up call) when I had pre natal depression with his younger brother. he drew a picture of me, and it was sad faced. He had never drawn a sad face before.

however, if she genuinely lacks insight into her own behavior, this is unlikely to work.

Maybe offer to take her child over night one week?

Agree with both posters, this is v. v. v. tricky. Offering to have child overnight/offering support to the mother in an 'are you OK, you seem very stressed' way sounds like a good thing to do.

Invite her in for a cup of tea next time she's dropping off/picking up and try gently talking how when you were going through a v. stressful time, you realised you'd inadvertently turned into shouty Mum who never had any positive interaction with your ds but was constantly barking at him or telling him off? In a 'we are all in this together' way?

Yes, I'd agree - you have to tread really carefully because she might be well aware of how bad her behaviour is but just be in such a bad place psychologically that she can't stop herself acting this way.

Could you try and get some quiet time with her - invite her round for a coffee during school hours- and ask her how she is, say you're worried about her, that you've noticed she doesn't seem herself right now, and that things seem really tense between her and DS. Say that 6yr olds can be really exhausting, you feel it yourself sometimes, is there any way you could help her through this difficult stage?

Maybe if you emphasis that it is a 'stage' her and DS are at it might feel more managable?

Could you get into a conversation about a programme you've watched about childcare (maybe something like super nanny) use your family as an example. Discuss how you used positive reinforcement after watching this programme and you've noticed a brilliant difference in your own childs behaviour.....something along those lines and hope that the subtle hint sinks in?

Failing that I know local to us they do positive parenting classes, perhaps you could suggest to her that the two of you attend something like this together so that the focus isn't all on her.

Could you invent a fictional friend who realised she was getting very stressed and shouty with the kids but tried a parenting class (at local children's centre) and found it really helped?

This happened to me when H and I were having massive problems. I was under huge stress, and every time the children acted up H would fly into a rage. I was so stressed with H (he was shouting/smashing things etc/constantly critical) I took it out on dc. On top of this I was suffering from depression.
I felt terribly guilty as although I was actually trying to protect them from their dad's anger, I was contributing to their miserableness.
It took a while for me to realise what was going on. Once I had the 'light-bulb' momnet it became possible for me to make changes. H also made(is making) big changes (therapy for both of us separately).
If someone had spoken to me only about how badly I was treating my children (i.e. not taking into account the dreadful home life because of H), I would have collapsed in a ball, and felt even more unable to cope/make changes. Our entire family needed help. Once that started we were able to get back on track.
I would ask your friend if she wants to talk about what is going on. I would let her know her ds is not a bad child but is most likely reacting to what he is witnessing at home.
Until the stress at home is relieved, it will be very difficult for your friend to parent sensitively.

that's a very helpful post. Think a gentle 'do you think ds is picking up on all the stress you must be feeling' next time she moans about it might be the best you can do...

I think its ok to tell her politely that her behaviour is effecting her child. May be she doesnt realise that she is doing long term harm to her child so i thnk a polite reminder will be acceptable.

I agree that this conversation needs to begin with concern for her, not her parenting skills. Next time she complains about DS, try pointing up that all children react to stresses at home by acting out. I've often done this with divorcing friends whose kids are troublesome. It gives you an open lead into gently offering her a good listening-to!

One thing I often do is respond to the parent's remarks to child, as if they hurt me - just a little "ouch", slight intake of breath or similar. If nothing else, it does validate the child's feeling.

As she's being so harsh on him, it's likely that she's somehow looking for him to make her feel better - which is unfair on the child, and couldn't happen anyway. He is, however, able to become a source of comfort & pride for her if she only gives him the positive environment to show his love. Good luck!

Thanks for all the posts.

I agree with all of you who said try to address this by supporting her to feel happier, calmer, etc. I didn't make clear in my original post that I've tried this. She started crying on the phone a while back, and I invited her over when the kids were asleep to talk about what was up. She was very open about her unhappiness in her marriage ? she loves her husband, he's a wonderful dad (he is), but she's just unhappy. I listened, didn't judge or advise, and just said I'd support her whatever she decided to do. I've said several times since that I'm here if she wants to talk; that I realise it must be a difficult time - but she's gone quiet. The last time I asked how she was, she snapped, "Fine! Why wouldn't I be?" She can be a bit scary!

She's been on parenting courses in the past, and has positive parenting books, and they don't seem to have made any difference (she's been shouty and snappy for years ? it's just become much worse lately). I think colditz nailed it with "if she genuinely lacks insight into her own behaviour, this is unlikely to work". Because people who have insight do eventually realise when something's amiss, don't they, and do something about it if they possibly can. newnamethistime, I'm really sorry you went through such a tough time. I could relate to your post. I'm sooo not a perfect parent, and DS suffered when his dad and I separated. Again, I think the key difference is being sufficiently self-aware and responsible to see that there's a problem - even if that takes a bit of time - and gradually turn things around. And I too would have crumpled if anyone had told me my misery was messing up my son; I knew and didn't need reminding. I do understand. That's why this is so difficult. I truly don't think she's going to say to herself, "Hmm, I've been taking my unhappiness out on DS lately. I need to sort myself out, and treat him more compassionately, and all will be well." I think she genuinely thinks he's a non-compliant, whiny pain in the arse - that he's the problem.

We're having her DS over once a week, and have had him over for the night once too. Maybe we'll do that more. Would it be worth me talking to another family member, in a I'm-worried-about-her-and-her-DS way? I'm friendly with her immediate family (we've known each other since we were children).

It is very, very difficult. I think you can help people who want to be helped with a particular problem, but not those who not only don't want the help, but don't see the problem.

I'd absolutely hate to be told this if you were my friend, but I'd like to think I'd also be grateful.
Sometimes when I'm shouting at DS i can see my mum thinking and that i'm being a bit hard on him. i don't know - it does help me check myself though.

As you say very very difficult especially dealing with someone who doesnt seem very self aware at the present. I would have thought it a possible help to talk to her family -if youre sure they wont tell her. If they did you would be in deep

good point Fio
otoh even if that is the case - should she not be helped to do her utmost to not make her DS unhappy? we're talking about continual unhappiness

Is this likely to be a temporary problem? I mean, do you get the sense that she will eventually separate from her husband, and do you think she will change when/if that happens? I'm unclear if you knew her before the whole marriage/kids stressors happened.

If it's temporary, I think just being there, and having her son over, is as helpful as you can be. If it's always been her personality - that is, if you think she'd be shouty and critical if her life was perfect - then, I don't know, I'm not sure anything will get through, and you have to just take care of yourself and hope for the best.

It does certainly sound like she (and her husband, no doubt) are affecting their son, and it's awfully sad. But past talking to her, there's nothing to do.

I hope you work it out.

I can't really add to all the good advice , she really needs to address her depression, but you could also praise her son to her face as much as is you can without it being obvious, like point out as often as possible when he has done something lovely or clever when he was at your house? She would inevitably feel a rush of pride, who wouldn't? And it might last. Actually you probably tried this too.

Yep, very unaware.

Her DS said to me at the weekend, "You're a much better behaved mummy than my mummy."

She called me later that night to joke about it - out of the mouths of babes, and all. I think she probably thinks I'm quite soft liberal in my parenting, and I do think she's very strict. Not strict even; plain harsh. But that aside, she went on to say that, well, if he didn't misbehave so much, she wouldn't be being so firm with him, and he has to learn, and he's old enough to know better, and he will be punished, etc, etc.

Stealth, I know what you mean. I have my moments of being harder on DS than I would be if I wasn't tired/in a hurry/pre-menstrual/whatever - and my mum does the same as your mum. I really don't think I've got it all sussed. But then I don't think DS is displaying obvious signs, most of the time, of feeling deeply insecure, so I figure I must be doing just about OK.

Hmm.

The child has to come first.

Ask the mother if she is okay as she doesn't seem very happy around her child. She needs to know someone has noticed how she is with him but by asking if she is okay first, hopefully she will open up.

good approach fab

tortoise, I've known her since secondary school. She has always been very highly strung. (I'm highly strung at times, but she makes me look like I'm stoned!) I don't remember her being so unhappy at school (we weren't in touch for about 10 years between school and having kids). Of course I can't know for sure - and we're not massively close now, more still friends because of our school history/children connection and living close to one another - but I suspect a lot of this is her personality, in varying concentrations/dilutions. I think she would still be very stressed if she wasn't with her husband (he's miserable too, but won't leave because he doesn't think she'd cope and he adores his kids) - but at least then the kids would have some respite from the stress when with their dad, no?

Good idea, cheguevara. I'll try that.

Thanks, Fab. I'll try that the next time we drop him off, if she starts laying into him. I know - only in as much as I know she's having marriage difficulties - that she's not OK day to day, generally, in the background, at home, IYSWIM. But I can ask her in the actual moment that she's hotting up with her DS. Is this what you meant?

And that's the thing, Fab: her DS is only six, and as you say, must come first. She's big enough to look after herself; he isn't. And if his mum is treating him disrespectfully a lot of the time, and it's affecting him and he's acting up a lot and is very unhappy, at what point does the "It takes a village to raise a child" philosophy kick in? I feel almost responsible to witness this and not do something. If I were her, of course I'd hate a friend to say something. If I were him (her DS), I'd hope and pray that the big people in my life would rally round and make things better.