Is it ever OK to tell a friend that they need to parent differently because they're making their child miserable?

[ScramblyEggsAndBeans]

I have a friend who I've known for years, and whose son is good friends with mine. I don't spend much time with her anymore, because I find her more full-on, stressed, snappy and shouty than I can handle, and DS has said he's frightened of her ... and I'll confess to feeling a bit deer-in-headlights around her too.

Lately, coinciding with her marriage getting into difficulty, I've noticed that every time we pick up her DS for a play, or drop him off, or pop over for whatever reason, she has nothing - really, nothing - positive to say to him. She shouts and barks orders at him, doesn't listen to what he feels/wants to do or talk with him to reach a compromise, swears at him (in the street!). It feels as though there's no love or warmth there at all - which of course there is (must be) deep down, but it's not showing.

And so of course he's coming back at her with hostility, arguing, refusing to do as he's told. And then she posts on Facebook about how difficult six-year-olds are - full of attitude, disrespect, demands (which is exactly how she is to him) - and a whole load of people post back and empathise and I find that really sad. She really does think he's the problem.

Meanwhile, her DS - when he's been at our house - has told us, unprompted, that he hates his mum, that she whinges and shouts at him all the time, that she's a liar, a crybaby, etc. Her son has started phoning us and asking to come over, without asking his mum first. Of course he shouldn't be doing this, but I think he's a bit desperate and trying to handle a difficult home situation in the only way he can think of. But of course he gets shouted at and punished for this too.

Is there any way I can gently tell her what her son's been saying - suggest that he needs more positive interaction and warmth from her - without sounding like a smug, interfering bitch? It's so difficult. I'd hate someone to tell me I'm fucking up my own DS (which I'm sure I am on some level, but hopefully not this much). And she's clearly stressed and unhappy and needs support too. I just find it so difficult to watch on as a lovely little boy gets crushed at home, and do nothing.

Any ideas? I'm popping out now, but will check back in later. Thanks.

Poor, poor boy. What a hideous life to have, and how awful at the age of 6 to say stuff like that about his mum.

I'm sure everyone else is right but if this was a friend of mine I would have had a serious talk about it with her by now. No way I could stand by and see this happening without saying anything. And this absloutely isn't a criticism Scrambly. I think you're going above and beyone in many ways and being an extremely good friend.

Scrambly - you say the father adores the children (does she treat them all so badly?), is he aware of what's going on?

I will give an example of something I have done to try and explain myself.

I was putting my shopping in the car when I heard a mother shouting at a boy of about 5-7. She was pretty rough putting him in the car too. I hesitated and then thought of the child and how I was as a child and everyone looked the other way, so I went over and asked Are you okay? She said yes, I said don't hit him/shout at him, you really don't want to do that. I touched her arm and managed to calm her down and the boy did too.

I went back to the car and then a few minutes later she came over. I thought she was going to shout but she thanked me. I said I knew it was none of my business but it was as I am a mum.

I was letting her know I had seen and heard what she was doing but I was also showing concern for her.

Good for you Fab.

Thanks, Fab. That was helpful. Brave of you to do that. Would you do the same with a friend, do you think? You have less to lose - less at stake - with a stranger, IYSWIM.

I didn't feel brave and dh wasn't best pleased. I just felt for the little boy. I would do the same with a friend.

It's really, really hard!

I have three very close girlfriends, all of whom I value dearly - and who all make some really dreadful parenting mistakes. One major disaster already, and a couple of others brewing.

It always boils down to the parents not really being unaware of how demanding they are of their children.

How about complimenting her son's good behaviour at any opportunity when you are with your friend? So, if you have had him for the day, when you are handing him over say something like "I really liked the way he listened when I asked him to xxxx and did what I requested with no arguing". This might help your friend to think that there may be another way to parent her son, or its gives her the opportunity to ask how you manage some situations that she is finding difficult.

Eggs and beans, you sound like you're a good mate and you've known her for a while. I think therefore she would ultimately forgive you when she sees you are trying to do the right thing.
I once lost it and someone dsaid to me 'look at what you're doing. She's only Xyrs old' in a very clam, controlled way, and then they left the room, taking my kid with them.
It really got to me and I have neever ever done it again despite being tired / stressed / snappy and going through a rough patch myself.
I am grateful to that person for doing that, but they are a relative not a friend. If it had been a friend I would have needed more support afterwards and defo a cuppa and cake as I think I would need proof that my friend forgave me, could see why I was in that state and wanted to help.

Have confidence in your friendship and shared history - you matter to her - and you clearly are very considerate in approaching this in a gentle manner. I would leave out the parts about what her little boy has shared with you behind her back, as this may put a stop to that for a while and he probably needs a break.

Does your kid ever go to play/stay the night at her house? What does he say about her?

I don't know what to suggest, but it reminds me of a friend of my mum. They had been friends since primary school and when we were little, we often visited them. They had 2 children so DSis and I would happily play with the children all day. The youngest child was clearly the favourite and the eldest was treated similarly to how you describe your friend treats her child. Even as a child, I noticed the unkind way the eldest child was treated. When he was 18, he walked out of the house and never went back. The family have never seen him since that day, they do not even know whether he is dead or alive. The saddest thing is that once he went, the friend could see what she had done but despite her efforts, he never got back in touch. The friend died a year or so back, without ever being able to resolve what had happened. The boy doesn't even know his mum has died.

My mum often says that if she could go back and do one thing in her life differently, it would be to go back and tell this woman what was so obvious to everyone else and to try and help her alter her appalling behaviour towards her son.

Some really poignant posts here.

I like running's point about complimenting her ds in front of her. Might make her realise there IS another point of view about him.

Some really good advice on here... I don't envy you and you sound like a very good friend and mum. Could you write her a letter instead of talking to her? It might give her the chance to think instead of reacting with anger - which it sounds like you think she will.

Good luck I think you are doing the right thing.

more, no, DS won't go there without me, and even if he does go with me, is on edge. He finds my friend scary - on account of her shouting and snapping, I would guess.

sayithowitis, that is so very, very sad. And reinforces my feeling that I must do something.

Thanks, running and honeymoo - good ideas.

I am another one who likes some of the ideas expressed here:

• the child comes first
• compliment the child for good behavior (when deserved) in front of her
• show concern for her

Another way of going at this might be to open up a conversation about her own childhood - what her mother was like, if there were any especially stressy times when she was a child and if so how her mum/parents behaved toward the kids. She might speak about it being painful/upsetting/bewildering as a child (or you could even prompt by saying something sympathetic like 'that must have been very painful for you', and see what she says). It could open up a door to chatting about her behaviour with her own ds.

You could maybe initiate a casual 'are we the mums we thought/hoped we'd be' chat (similar to some threads on here), where you both shared a few parenting triumphs (where you got it right, and felt good about things in a tricky situation), and what you find difficult and feel unsettled about.

Another alternative would be to ask her outright (sympathetically, not confrontationally) how things are at home (the door is open for this as she confided in you before). You could then say you are worried for her because she seems so impatient/hot-tempered/consistently angry with her ds, which of course as she knows is a vicious circle of bad behaviour-shouting-more bad behaviour-more shouting, etc.

Ask who is supporting her through this difficult time, and what help she is getting. She should be confiding in someone professional who can help her with this stressful time - a psychologist, a GP who might prescribe anti-depressants, a church/vicar, Relate, etc.

A final thought (for now :

How long has this been going on?

It is completely possible her little boy doesn't know how to behave well anymore. If they have been in this vortex of anger/stress for a relatively long time, he probably needs to be re-taught what she wants from him. Patient and consistent positive reinforcement of the smallest thing will make him want to do more/better.

Children want to please their parents, but they also want attention. Perhaps she has only been giving negative attention (because the bahaviour often demands a response), and both of them have forgotten how to be positive with each other. She needs to teach him and show him.

You might also open up the conversational door with her by asking how her ds is handling/reacting to all the tension/stress at home. Then gently tell her that he probably needs some extra sympathy/patience/understanding because this must be hugely difficult for him too. It is terrible to feel unloved in your own home, by your own parents who are simply too involved with/upset by their own problems.