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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is there any hope for our relationship any more?

47 replies

LindenLea · 23/06/2010 05:35

I'm a regular on here, but I don't want to be identified so I've set up a new name, not even namechanged.
I'm running out of options and I don't know what to do or even how I feel anymore.

My husband has been carrying on a relationship with an American woman online. It's been going on for a long time now. I can't be sure, but I think it started nearly 3 years ago. He made up a facebook name for himself and pretended to be years younger than he is, started this relationship, then confessed to me about it all. To say it was a shock is an understatement. He was eventually persuaded to come clean with her and admit who he really was. I expected her to run a mile, I mean I would if it was me, but she didn't. He's now carrying on his relationship and has other relationships, although not so strong, with other women on the internet.
This woman has asked him for money on many occasions and he has sent her this even though he can't afford it. His credit card is at maximum so he started using mine until I found out about it.

It seems to have been serious. He's written love poems to her and the relationship has moved on from facebook to him phoning her.
I've insisted he doesn't contact her in the middle of the night, as he was originally doing because she's in the US. When I felt he was ready to do it according to the counsellor, I insisted he stop all contact with her. He promised to do this. I've now found out that he is still talking to her every day. It seems to be him that's pushing the relationship. He's always the one to make contact and there seem to have been times when she's told him to back off because he's being obsessive and clingy.

I really thought our relationship had been OK. This all blew up after I had a miscarriage and was quite ill. I?m not sure why this would have sent him away from me, but it did. Then I became pregnant and the relationship has been going on all through that time. He's been to a counsellor who was recommended by a friend and I went along sometimes, too, but I?ve since found out that she isn't really qualified as a professional counsellor and the counselling has stopped because I was feeling very threatened by some of the things she was doing (breaking confidences, advising us what to do, telling us far too much about herself and identifying with me in particular). I've been left with severe postnatal depression, feeling suicidal and near a nervous breakdown. I'm now on medication. Because I was suicidal, the doctor insisted my husband take charge of it. He keeps forgetting to renew the prescription. Last week I was without it for 5 days which isn't helping. I know that means that I'm not thinking clearly and I'm too emotional to see things as they are.

My husband doesn't "do" responsibility or decisions. He relies on me to make decisions and do things for him. His mother micromanaged his life and he doesn't want to take responsibility. It means that he can then blame me when things don't turn out as he'd like.

We've had rows. The latest was on Sunday when he again swore at me, called me vile names and even pushed me, all in full hearing of our children. I never swear at him because I hate it but I did retaliate and told him, as I thought, a few home truths about his not taking responsibility. He refused to accept it.
Usually if we're arguing, or even just discussing, he refuses to listen to me when I try to tell him how I feel and constantly interrupts what I'm trying to say by telling me I'm talking rubbish (his words are usually stronger though). If I persist, he walks away.
Since finding out that he's still in contact with her, I don't know what to do. I can't leave him. Not only do we have children to support but we work together running our own company. Something else he blames me for. He had other jobs but moaned like hell about them. He seemed to like working at our business but has times when he moans about it, says I've ruined his life and hates it all and made his life hell ever since we married. He insists he does everything and I do nothing. He does have depression and he's had that since before I knew him. He is taking medication at the moment, too.

It's a mess. I don?t know what to do. I can't throw him out. He refuses to go. I'm not even sure that I want him to go but at the moment I can think of nothing good about our personal relationship. It goes without saying that our sex life is non-existant. I'm too tired, I feel betrayed, I cringe at the thought of a physical relationship. He says, and the counsellor says, it's because I was abused as a child but I dealt with all that years ago in counselling and I don't see it as an issue now. I'd almost forgotten about it until he told the counsellor about it. I don't know why he's doing this or why he's still here when he seems to hate me sometimes, he blames me for everything and says it's the abuse and that I hate men. I'm just so tired of it all. I have a young baby and a family, plus I'm doing the mammoth share of the work in our business because he's going through one of his hating the job phases and keeps disappearing. His mother is saying she doesn't know what's wrong with him. She's had words with him reminding him that he has a wife and family. She hasn't always been supportive so it's nice that she's doing that now.

Sorry to offload this but I have no-one else to talk to. He's friendly with all my friends and they'd never believe all this of him. I'm very confused and I don't know how I feel or what I can do.
I feel that he's abusive, controlling, manipulative and untrustworthy. I'm afraid to raise all this yet again with him because it'll mean another upset and I can't handle it at the moment. We do have good moments. He loves our children and is great with them. He loves the baby. It just seems to be me. The counsellor says he doesn't want to hurt me and he loves me. She says he needs someone to look after and that I'm too independent for him to do that. I can't really understand that because it seems to have been when I really needed him after the miscarriage and when I was pregnant that he hasn't been there for me.

OP posts:
snowmama · 23/06/2010 05:57

oh I am sorry you are going through such a bad time. You are right he is being abusive, manipulative and controlling on all fronts.
He is not good for the kids and is teaching them terribly destructive patterns for the future,and sorry your counsellor is insane get a new one urgently.
Ring womens Aid today about your options. Incidentally my marriage to my EA H lost me my house, savings and all my assets i can make that back,.the lives of my children and i are more important.
Please ring womens aid for real life support.

thumbwitch · 23/06/2010 06:27

Your counsellor seems to have been taken in by him as well by the sounds of it - on the outside he wants to be seen to be the on in charge, the 'man' of the house, the reliable dependable one - but actually he wants you to do all that and for him to take the credit for it. Dump the counsellor and get one who can see through his smoke and mirrors - this one has been fooled completely.

Of course he wasn't there for you after your MC ( about that btw) or your pg because you were demonstrating neediness and "weakness" - you needed help and someone to rely on, rather than you being the prop.

If your friends don't believe you when you say what he is really like then you need new friends - not believing what you say is disrespectful, especially as they can only see the facade.

At least his mother seems to realise he is letting the side down but don't rely on her support entirely - it is possible that if push came to shove, she would take his side.

There is no point raising this again with this 'man' - he has already made his position clear, you are to be the silent uncomplaining strength behind the throne with no recognition of what you actually do. You are there to support him, not the other way around.

Next point - is there any hope for your relationship - no, to be blunt. He has no respect for you or your feelings - why would you want to stay with him anyway? You don't love him any more - lots of women will come on here to attest to the fact that staying in a bad marriage for the sake of the DC is counterproductive as DC nearly always know there is something wrong and are generally happier if the parents split and the tension in the house goes.

He won't leave - well yes he will if you seek a legal separation and get the courts behind you. Has he been physically abusive to you?

You can't run the business on your own - isn't that pretty much what you're doing already? I'm sure it wouldn't take much to go the final step (unless he is the "creative" side of the business)

Good moments are the trademark of the abusive partner - they serve to further confuse the situation and make you think there is still some spark, some hope that this 'man' isn't as bad as all that and that maybe you do cause him to be horrible to you. Bollocks. It's just a trick.

Again, he has no respect for you or your opinion - he won't even listen to you. He abuses you in front of your DC (how on earth do you think THEY feel about that?) It won't be long before he starts on them - probably when they reach their teens. Do you want them to go through it as well?

This "relationship" is over, bury it and work out how to leave successfully.

Good luck!

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 23/06/2010 06:30

He's running you into debt by sending all your money to other women
Cheating on you, persistently and over a long term period, with several women
Lying to you and to them
Is physically violent
Is verbally abusive
Leaves the running of the business AND the running of the family to you, and I'm going to guess doesn't exactly shine in the housework department
You are so severely depressed (as a result of all of this) that you are suicidal if you don't take your anti-depressant medication and yet he can't be bothered renewing your prescription. So he literally doesn't care if you live or die, then?

You can leave him. You basically have to leave him. He's not contributing anything to your life, emotionally, financially, sexually or in any other way. He "loves the children" so much that he's happy to send them into penury while he spends their money on other women, and leave you to the bulk of the childrearing and running the business? And oh, he's depressed so it's not his fault - but YOU have severe depression, and you're still running the show.

You can't afford not to leave him, love. He's going to destroy you otherwise.

AnyFucker · 23/06/2010 07:24

What tortoise said

You have to extricate yourself somehow...he is destroying you...financially, emotionally, mentally and even physically

You cannot stay

cestlavielife · 23/06/2010 09:56

oh my word. yes he absolutely is "abusive, controlling, manipulative and untrustworthy".

get another counsellor, for yourself.

i agree "There is no point raising this again " - you will get nowhere.

your PND is probably tied up with the way he is abusing you emotionally, as wella s miscarriage etc - new baby can trigger all miscarraig trauma. you need a good counsellor. and you dont need this man.

"The latest was on Sunday when he again swore at me, called me vile names and even pushed me, all in full hearing of our children" this has to be enough to make you leave him (if he wont go then you will need to).
it is a vile thing to do. my ex did this too. and it IS harmful to the children.

thinking of you

...at least i think by getting all this down you can see it for what it is and you can begin to plan.

dont argue, cajole, any more.

go see a solicitor. find out your rights.

find a way out fo teh company...

"says I've ruined his life and hates it all and made his life hell ever since we married." ah yes i had all that too...and my ex was/is depressed.... it is not your fault...

and even when you turn it back to him and say "well if you so miserable let's split" you will find he wil turn it back onto you again. you cant win an arguemtn with these people - you need to leave - but watch out -the verbal abuse can turn physical when eh realises he losing the person he uses to control...

go see your own counsellor, a solicitor etc. speak to womens aid. he is abusing you...
"

LindenLea · 23/06/2010 22:14

Thank you all for your kind responses. I suppose I ought to have known this for what it is but even now I find it hard to believe this is emotional abuse. Does that sound silly?
To be honest I thought I was going to get a "pull yourself together woman!" answer from at least some of you.

I feel so tired.

I know you're going to think me very weak and stupid but I just haven't got the strength and energy at the moment to make the decision that it's all finished. I think I'm going to have to do it all one step at a time. I'm even more confused now because I had some flowers delivered from him this afternoon with a little note thanking me for his children. I really don't know what to think. I know he was disappointed in my reaction and I did try to be grateful but it all felt like such an effort. He'll probably drag that up in our next row and say I was ungrateful.

I'm going to find a counsellor first. I can cope with that one. I've had a look at the Womens Aid website and I've got their number. That'll be step 2.

I'm sorry. I feel so ashamed and useless and tired. I do think that I can't make any major decisions at the moment while I feel like this.

Thank you everyone.

OP posts:
EricNorthmansmistress · 23/06/2010 22:23

He sounds unbelievably dreadful. You sound knackered and miserable. Ugghh, he just sounds awful. You can't live like this forever - I hope you find the strength to kick him out when the time is right for you.

PotPourri · 23/06/2010 22:32

Make the decision now. the steps to act on it can go more slowly. You deserve more, and your children do too. He may end your life (suicidal) and has already sapped your life of joy and hope.

Worst case scenario - you end up with nothing but you will have your dignity andwill have shown your children that you are strong and deserve to be ttreated wioth respect (as do they now and in their future relationships when they grow up)

rowingcah · 23/06/2010 22:49

He sent you flowers? Oh well that makes it all alright then! And then expects you to be grateful? Bless him hey !

Please consider trying to take some control over you life as everything that is happening and everything you are doing is as a reaction to his actions. Write up a list of small steps to take if you think it might help - each step building up to leaving.
e.g. Change counsellor or even better get your own counsellor; contact solicitor; speak to a friend about this or if you can't perhaps the Samaritans; contact Women's Aid; start saving some money for you and your DCs etc etc. They don't even have to be about getting you in a place to leave it might just be about making YOU feel better e.g. night out, doing something great with your DCs.

As you go through the list you will find you have more control over your own life and will feel stronger for it.

SolidGoldBrass · 23/06/2010 23:06

Bin the 'counsellor'. In fact, report the 'counsellor' as she sounds like a total fraud, possibly even someone who is in collusion with this awful man and has been all along.
Women's Aid will help you with legal and practical advice for getting rid of him. He is an utter parasite of the worst sort, the sort that destroys its host.

IsGraceAvailable · 23/06/2010 23:20

You are not weak. You've withstood the most extraordinary campaign of manipulation & degradation from a man who is supposed to love you. With regret for pushing home the message you didn't want to hear, he never did love you. Your miscarriage exacerbated his behaviours - possible if he sees it as your purpose to incubate his children, so saw that as 'failure to perform'.

To discover such ugliness, behind the person who shares your life, is a monstrous shock. But I'll wager the effort of DENIAL is what underlies your depression. You've read enough threads, here, to know that an emotionally stable, secure family life with one parent and less money is far, far healthier than a bank balance whose price is misery.

There are enough clues in your post to convince me he's always been like this. Nothing triggered it - the functioning relationship you appeared to have was the lie.

I'm sorry. I'm also sorry for this American woman, if he succeeds in reeling her back in.

Please call WA for a talk, and see a solicitor. It's time for you to put your good efforts into your own, more satisfying future.

IsGraceAvailable · 23/06/2010 23:21

was supposed to say may* have exacerbated

thumbwitch · 23/06/2010 23:58

lindenlea - build your strength up - feel angry with this 'man' for his crapness.
Why are you ashamed? Because his systematic destruction of your self esteem has blinded you to the situation? HIS fault, not yours.
Useless? No doubt something HE would say, not you - you are VERY useful or he wouldn't have a functioning business, home, DC etc.
Tired? Not surprised you're tired - it's being emotionally drained all the time that does that.

Flowers to say thank you for his DC? What about flowers to say "I love you", "you are the most wonderful woman" - no he sent flowers to thank you for being an incubator.

He is a classic manipulative, abusive knob end. You need to save yourself and your DC from this situation - as is said so often in these scenarios - do you want your DC growing up thinking this is normal, this is the way relationships work? Probably not - so start working towards getting out of it asap.

You HAVE the strength for this - you just need to find it onder the overlayer of dross that this 'man' has poisoned you with. It's there - start ignoring the dross. And also ignore any "nice" things the 'man' is doing - it's just bait to keep you in his trap.

Sleep well tonight - and tomorrow start the first step towards freedom

Eurostar · 24/06/2010 00:38

Definitely bin the counsellor. She seems to be making you feel blamed.

Can perhaps see where she is coming from in saying that he can't handle your independence. Yes, if he's sending money to unknown internet women friends, he would seem to have some sort of "rescuer" complex and, your having been abused, which he brought up with the counsellor, sadly may have been a factor in him being attracted to someone who might need rescuing, and then he can't handle that you don't. HOWEVER, none of that is your fault, it is HIS problem and there is no way you should be feeling you have to change to fit his odd, skewed, fantasy behaviour.

Women's Aid will be able to advise you on proper, qualified counsellors in your area who understand about abusive manipulators.

( By the way, I don't think there's anywhere to report her unless she claims to be registered with the BABCP or similar and is not. "Counsellor" is not yet a protected job title, although I think it will become one with these people www.hpc-uk.org/aboutregistration/protectedtitles/)

You really thought someone would say pull yourself together? There is nothing OK about anything he is doing, it sounds a horrific way to live.

He sent you flowers today, after your post? If this is very out of the blue I would be suspicious that he has monitoring software on your computer.

Wishing you strength to free yourself from this man.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 24/06/2010 02:26

Linden, it's not just emotional abuse, although it's definitely that; he's physically abused you as well.

Look at my list again. I pulled those points from your post and I put them in a list for a reason. Look at how long it is.

cestlavielife · 24/06/2010 11:26

" I had some flowers delivered from him this afternoon with a little note thanking me for his children" ugh uigh ugh.... when i had told my now exP it was over, said he needed to leave and move out etcetc - (he refused, in the end i moved) he went overboard with flowers, expensive gifts, etcetc and poems letters about the wonderful gifts of the DCS etcetc...

follows a script...

frankly those flowers/gifts/poems made me feel sick.... what was your reaction?

cestlavielife · 24/06/2010 11:27

and yes a GOOD counsellor will help you, you need that support. but dont go anywhere near this one again

LindenLea · 27/06/2010 18:14

Just an update, really. I've been feeling numb and remote all week, trying to reconcile the man I thought I was married to with the man that I am finding out more and more about.

I looked through his accounts on his phone last week. He's got one of those that lets you access the internet. Through that, I've found that one of the ladies he's been talking to, who he's been friendly with rather than this obsessive relationship he seems to have with the other one, is some sort of host on a sex site. I'm not even sure what that means. I know I'm naive, but I've never been near this kind of site in my life. The email she'd sent to him just said she was in trouble for going further than the site allowed on a webcam and was having her account terminated. I feel sick just thinking about it.

I'm just so utterly shocked and wondering what the hell else is going to come out when I talk to him. I have to talk to him now, but I don't know where to start.

I'm trying to face up to the decision of leaving him and I'm finding out what my options are. I'm terrified, though. I never, never thought I'd ever be separated from my husband and it's a hard thing to even contemplate being without him. I suppose that I never knew him at all.

OP posts:
LindenLea · 29/06/2010 23:10

I've just been to see another counsellor and I am amazed at having heard her say so much of what the OP of the "Listen Up, Everybody" thread said.

I'm feeling much more positive tonight after a terrible week. I just wanted you all to know that and thank you.

Step 1

OP posts:
LindenLea · 03/07/2010 10:47

I've been thinking and thinking about this situation and I feel I'm no nearer to making up my mind what to do.
I think the shock is passing now. I've just felt numb and unbelieving that this could be happening to us. I kept thinking I would wake up any minute. Only, of course, I didn't. I'm still very confused about how I feel.

I've spoken to my husband about it all. He's changed his story several times, but the gist of it is that he can't see that he's doing anything wrong. He did have an emotional relationship, but that's ended and they're just good friends. He can't understand why I insist it must finish.
He's evasive about the porn sites. He insists he only uses the chat rooms for friendship on the webcam site. Yes, he met another woman on there, but she's strictly a friend and only did it for the money.
He has agreed to remove all dubious content/emails from his phone because our sonn uses it to play games. At first, he said there was nothing bad on there and I had to show him what I objected to. He has removed that.
He also insists that I told him I didn't mind. I've been desperately trying to remember saying this, but I can't. I'm now wondering if something I said made him think I was OK with it and whether any of it was my fault.

We're being polite to each other at the moment. He's trying to be loving and I'm trying to respond affectionately and not doing very well. I'm living for the next counselling session, which will be together. He is resentful about this because he wants a session on his own, too, and thinks it's unfair. He says he's the one who's depressed and needs help so why am I being counselled. All along, I think he's resented that I'm being treated for PND. He feels his needs are being ignored.

So. Coping better than I was, but still confused and feeling like I'm acting in an EastEnders episode and not real life

OP posts:
Anniegetyourgun · 03/07/2010 11:13

It really doesn't sound like anything significant has changed. He's glossing over things and trying to look a bit more as if he cares, but he doesn't, does he? Am that he seems to think it's ok to have webcam sex as long as it's only for the money...! But in any case he's lying about it, "she's a friend" my arse. (Or more accurately, her arse, and other portions of the anatomy. On webcam. For payment. Classy.)

This is making you ill and surely it can't go on the way it is. Feeling that it's all you and nobody else would believe you is part of the game that so many abusive men play, and make no mistake, this is quite unpleasant abuse. It's not just about the seedy internet goings-on, it's a total lack of respect or genuine caring. I mean, the thing where he was in charge of your medication but couldn't even be bothered to collect it for a week, that indicates he actually doesn't particularly care whether you live or die. Am I exaggerating? Not really. The doctor was so worried about you that he set someone he thought was trustworthy to make absolutely sure you got the care you needed. Then your supposedly loving husband "forgets". Has this changed, is he taking more care now, or is it just about trying to give you a grope and a smooch in between insulting and belittling you?

I do wonder just how depressed you'd be if he wasn't in your life any more. A lot less, by the sound of it.

LindenLea · 05/08/2010 15:07

Time for an update.

The counselling is going well. It's together, so I wasn't too sure about it at first, but in actual fact, it's mostly me sitting listening while she pins him down and tells him a whole lot of home truths that I would love to have the courage to tell him! Really strange, but very theraputic for me. As she said to him, it's no skin off her nose if he walks out (that was the one and only time he threatened to do it).

On the negative side, I opened a letter to him, thinking it was an important document we were expecting, and it's a money transfer receipt. So he's still sending her money after swearing blind that he wouldn't. He tried to lie and deny it, but it's in plain black and white (and yellow and orange). He has also transferred a debt he ran up on sex sites to my credit card, which is now at it's limit and I'm responsible for it! My password has been changed, but it's too late now

I'm looking at housing at the moment. It's going to be very, very difficult to leave for financial reasons. My business will finish. I could try and throw him out again, but not sure that'll work.

I've also contacted the police and the social network site he was using to report that this women is soliciting for money.

And that's it so far. I'm slowly getting there. Next step is a solicitor, I suppose, to see if we can sort out this awful financial mess he seems to have got us into. He just blew the final ever chance I will give him when that MT receipt arrived.

OP posts:
LucyLouLou · 05/08/2010 15:36

Hi LindenLea - I've just read through this thread wondering how you've put up for it for so long. Can't believe your patience tbh.

You know now that this is way beyond saving. Your DH is an asshole. Sorry, but he is, and depression does not excuse or explain that. If you have to lose your business over this, it's sad, but it's a small price to pay for dignity, self respect, independance and happiness. He is a real piece of work.

Stay strong, you have support here.

Good luck, and a really big hug .

cestlavielife · 05/08/2010 15:48

i think you got a good counsellor there - tho i bet he feels hen pecked!

anyway gald you amking plans - tell yourself, it is only money, that you can eventually resolve... the rest is what will drag you down.

tb · 05/08/2010 16:29

First of all, lots of hugs and good luck.

I suppose technically that him using your credit card is fraud. Perhaps it might be an idea to let that slip at the next counselling session, so that the counsell can tell him that it's fraud.

When you start thinking about a solicitor, take your time and make a list of all the things you want to bring up, probably over several days, if not weeks.

You could always contact your credit card people and tell them that he has transferred the balance to your card. Or, take a leaf out of his book, and transfer it back, then tell him you can't remember doing it.