Is there any hope for our relationship any more?

[LindenLea]

I'm a regular on here, but I don't want to be identified so I've set up a new name, not even namechanged.
I'm running out of options and I don't know what to do or even how I feel anymore.

My husband has been carrying on a relationship with an American woman online. It's been going on for a long time now. I can't be sure, but I think it started nearly 3 years ago. He made up a facebook name for himself and pretended to be years younger than he is, started this relationship, then confessed to me about it all. To say it was a shock is an understatement. He was eventually persuaded to come clean with her and admit who he really was. I expected her to run a mile, I mean I would if it was me, but she didn't. He's now carrying on his relationship and has other relationships, although not so strong, with other women on the internet.
This woman has asked him for money on many occasions and he has sent her this even though he can't afford it. His credit card is at maximum so he started using mine until I found out about it.

It seems to have been serious. He's written love poems to her and the relationship has moved on from facebook to him phoning her.
I've insisted he doesn't contact her in the middle of the night, as he was originally doing because she's in the US. When I felt he was ready to do it according to the counsellor, I insisted he stop all contact with her. He promised to do this. I've now found out that he is still talking to her every day. It seems to be him that's pushing the relationship. He's always the one to make contact and there seem to have been times when she's told him to back off because he's being obsessive and clingy.

I really thought our relationship had been OK. This all blew up after I had a miscarriage and was quite ill. I?m not sure why this would have sent him away from me, but it did. Then I became pregnant and the relationship has been going on all through that time. He's been to a counsellor who was recommended by a friend and I went along sometimes, too, but I?ve since found out that she isn't really qualified as a professional counsellor and the counselling has stopped because I was feeling very threatened by some of the things she was doing (breaking confidences, advising us what to do, telling us far too much about herself and identifying with me in particular). I've been left with severe postnatal depression, feeling suicidal and near a nervous breakdown. I'm now on medication. Because I was suicidal, the doctor insisted my husband take charge of it. He keeps forgetting to renew the prescription. Last week I was without it for 5 days which isn't helping. I know that means that I'm not thinking clearly and I'm too emotional to see things as they are.

My husband doesn't "do" responsibility or decisions. He relies on me to make decisions and do things for him. His mother micromanaged his life and he doesn't want to take responsibility. It means that he can then blame me when things don't turn out as he'd like.

We've had rows. The latest was on Sunday when he again swore at me, called me vile names and even pushed me, all in full hearing of our children. I never swear at him because I hate it but I did retaliate and told him, as I thought, a few home truths about his not taking responsibility. He refused to accept it.
Usually if we're arguing, or even just discussing, he refuses to listen to me when I try to tell him how I feel and constantly interrupts what I'm trying to say by telling me I'm talking rubbish (his words are usually stronger though). If I persist, he walks away.
Since finding out that he's still in contact with her, I don't know what to do. I can't leave him. Not only do we have children to support but we work together running our own company. Something else he blames me for. He had other jobs but moaned like hell about them. He seemed to like working at our business but has times when he moans about it, says I've ruined his life and hates it all and made his life hell ever since we married. He insists he does everything and I do nothing. He does have depression and he's had that since before I knew him. He is taking medication at the moment, too.

It's a mess. I don?t know what to do. I can't throw him out. He refuses to go. I'm not even sure that I want him to go but at the moment I can think of nothing good about our personal relationship. It goes without saying that our sex life is non-existant. I'm too tired, I feel betrayed, I cringe at the thought of a physical relationship. He says, and the counsellor says, it's because I was abused as a child but I dealt with all that years ago in counselling and I don't see it as an issue now. I'd almost forgotten about it until he told the counsellor about it. I don't know why he's doing this or why he's still here when he seems to hate me sometimes, he blames me for everything and says it's the abuse and that I hate men. I'm just so tired of it all. I have a young baby and a family, plus I'm doing the mammoth share of the work in our business because he's going through one of his hating the job phases and keeps disappearing. His mother is saying she doesn't know what's wrong with him. She's had words with him reminding him that he has a wife and family. She hasn't always been supportive so it's nice that she's doing that now.

Sorry to offload this but I have no-one else to talk to. He's friendly with all my friends and they'd never believe all this of him. I'm very confused and I don't know how I feel or what I can do.
I feel that he's abusive, controlling, manipulative and untrustworthy. I'm afraid to raise all this yet again with him because it'll mean another upset and I can't handle it at the moment. We do have good moments. He loves our children and is great with them. He loves the baby. It just seems to be me. The counsellor says he doesn't want to hurt me and he loves me. She says he needs someone to look after and that I'm too independent for him to do that. I can't really understand that because it seems to have been when I really needed him after the miscarriage and when I was pregnant that he hasn't been there for me.

I'm sorry but is this for real??

How can you let anyone treat you like that?

I'm not letting anyone treat me like this. I'm letting my husband treat me like it. Perhaps you've never been in this situation where someone gradually wears you down until your self esteem is literally gone.

It's unfortunate if you don't believe me, but perhaps, if you find it difficult to believe a post in Relationships, you should ignore it rather than risk upsetting someone who's finding things difficult enough without having to deal with contemptuous dismissal. It's fear of that kind of attitude that discourages women from seeking help.

LindenLea - I'm sorry you've been left feeling like that, but I suspect thesunshinesbrightly was merely in disbelief at how bad things are for you, I doubt it was meant as a horrible comment. (Sorry for highjacking that comment, but just wanted to give you a perspective ).

Please stay strong.

Thank you for clarifying Lucy. I'm sorry I misunderstood.
Feeling less sensitive now I've had a cup of tea

Yes i have actually and he wasn't around for long.

Sorry if you thought i was being rude i was not.

LucyLouLou - Thank you that was exactly what i meant.

You are both welcome . Tea makes everything feel better I think....wonder if I could slip some morphine in there for when I go into labour lol.

I'm sorry, sunshine. I've been dealing with the social network site all day, who've been asking me to justify, justify, provide proof, accounts, names, times, dates and then said they couldn't find any evidence so they weren't taking any action.

So, anyone struggling to make ends meet because their prat of a husband has been sending money to a con-artist, MySpace say it's not their problem.

I'm a bit hypersensitive as a result.

Good luck with your labour, Lucy! I recommend gas and air. Worth going through labour for that .

Thank you LindenLea, I've been told the pain relief is awesome ....my friend has just had a DS and apparently started laughing uncontrollably and talking about Priscilla Queen of the Desert (?!) during labour. Slightly off topic, but makes me laugh just thinking about it, and I figured you could probably do with the laughs today .

I've popped on here while he's not around. I thought we seemed to be getting on a bit better, then a letter arrived for him while he was away. We were expecting an important document and the envelope looked official so I opened it. It was a receipt for an international money transfer, despite him swearing he wouldn't send any more money to her.

So when his credit card statement came, I opened that, too. It said that nearly £1500 had been transferred to her in the last month. I was so shocked that I handed it straight to my MIL, who was there at the time. She was very good, but said I must talk to him about it.

So that's what I did.

The talk didn't go well at all. He was aggressively defensive. He accused me of violating his privacy. He said I was a shit stirrer for telling his mother. He admitted that he's sent similar amounts in the past. He can't see anything wrong in that. He got very abusive when I said it was stealing from us and he's not having that at all.

We went out for a meal that evening to try and talk it through a bit. Naturally that was a disaster, too, with him telling me that it takes two to tango and that I'm just as much to blame as him. He was defiant and insulting, claiming that friends and our former counsellor agreed with him. He accused me of trying to catch him out and of enjoying the situation because it made him seem in the wrong. When he finally told me that they'd all agreed it would never have happened if I hadn't been such a crap wife, I got up and walked out of the restaurant.

He followed and apologised and said he shouldn't have said that. He kept saying what did I want him to do, he couldn't turn the clock back. I said I needed him to take responsibility and stop blaming me. He said he was sorry, it was all his fault and now was I happy, but his tone of voice didn't sound sorry at all.
He's now refusing to discuss it at all except with our present counsellor and says I've ignored an agreement not to discuss anything like this outside counselling. I don't remember us making that agreement.

So we're holding off until the next counselling session in 2 weeks. I can't understand how he's managed to turn it around so I'm in the wrong when he's spent all that money. I feel like I must be going completely mad.

I asked our last counsellor if she thought he was capable of hurting our children. I'd felt uneasy about it because whenever any case came up in the media about a father killing his children, he always said he could understand why and he wouldn't let anyone else bring up his kids.
She said it was impossible because he definately wasn't the type.
Am I right to still worry about this? He's lied and manipulated about so many things. Is he saying this to upset me, or has he pulled the wool over her eyes and is really capable of killing them? I really need to be sure before I decide about leaving him.

Oh, Linden. He's clearly not going to change, is he? He's sworn to you that he'll stop over and over, and doesn't. He's transferred a debt racked up by sex sites to your credit card without your permission - can you see how incredibly callous and selfish that is? And now he's blaming you for being a crap wife, he's outright lying to you that his friends and counsellor agree with him (you know that's a lie, right), he's lying to you about an agreement not to discuss matters, etc.

Are you saying that while there's a risk of him killing the children, you won't leave? It's impossible to say for sure, but it sounds like the counsellor is in a position to make that judgement. If you really are scared, though, you can't just stay with him - you'll have to invesigate restraining orders and supervised contact. Staying is really not an option anymore, love.

He's lying to you about absolutely everything, blaming you for caring enough about not being bankrupted to "snoop", and getting aggressive. That's not a man who wants to change and sees his faults.

You are absolutely right. In fact, you have all been right and it's taken me this long to face up to it all and realise that you are right. If that makes sense.

We went to the counselling session. It was not good. I'd held off discussing the latest situation until we were back with the counsellor and he seems to have assumed that this meant it was all finished with and forgiven. He got very upset in the counselling and said I was dragging things up again that had been dealt with. The counsellor pointed out that he had not allowed me to discuss it before.

He became very angry and abusive and threatened to walk out. He says he's being picked on. She stayed calm and detached and told him that was up to him, it made no difference to her because it wasn't her marriage. She was almost contemptuous and it did frighten me because I didn't know how he would react.

Eventually, she turned to me, shut him up several times when he tried to interrupt, and told me straight. He's not going to change. He's not going to give up this other woman. He's going to keep lying and keep deceiving me unless I can accept her as a friend of his and let it go. If I decide to do that, we can move on and work on the marriage itself. She will help me whatever I decide to do. She told me to think about this, not to discuss it with him at all, and to let her know when I'd decided. I'm seeing her on my own this week.

That's where I am at the moment. My head is telling me exactly what I should do. I should refuse to accept this situation and I should leave him. My heart tells me that, if I do, I could lose my children, I will probably lose my home and business and I will let down my clients. I am afraid of being on my own and I feel it is my duty to stay. My mother stayed with my father in similar circumstances so the feeling of duty probably comes from her.

Right now, the head is ruling. I don't think I can accept the situation. I know that, if I do, I will be expected to accept it cheerfully, he will expect me to behave like a loving wife and I will not be allowed to make any reference to this ever again. He will continue with his relationship and will probably go on to have a full-blown affair with someone if he hasn't already done so. I'm neither a saint or a martyr and I don't think I can do it.

I am afraid for my children and I will tell the counsellor when I next see her. She seems to know exactly how he ticks and I think she'll be able to reassure me or otherwise.

Now that the shock has worn off, I am feeling angry. I feel absolutely livid with him, so angry at times that I can't speak to him in case I explode and I cry with frustration. He thinks it's the PND back again. He can't seem to see that it's the whole situation that has got me so upset and he certainly would never accept that he could possibly have anything to do with it. I can't understand how anyone can be so totally self-deluded, but I suppose I was, too, for most of my marriage.

why do you think you could lose your children if you leave him?

Hi - I don't usually comment on threads like this but here goes. If you stay then you'll need to keep this thread going for the rest of your life, because he's obviously not going to change.

You're worried for yourself and your children's safety yet you're mentioning things like money (even though your husband sounds like a financial liability) and your business and your house. These things will work themselves out and are nothing compared to you and your children's safety. I know it's scary but you're a mother and you need to do this for your children if you won't do it for yourself. Imagine if your mother had written this post, imagine you are the child. What would you want your mother to do? I think it's pretty obvious.

"I should leave him. My heart tells me that, if I do, I could lose my children, I will probably lose my home and business and I will let down my clients. I am afraid of being on my own and I feel it is my duty to stay."

Why would you lose your children?

and why woudl you lose your home? you dont have to look for housing - you need to see a solicitor and get your husband to move out

you said that you are running most of teh business anyway? and isnt your own health and your children happiness more important than you clients?

and why is it your DUTY to stay in the house sharing situation? its not a marriage/partnership is any real sense. he has already LEFT in heart , mind and committement terms. no loving father behaves like this

please stop talking to your husband about the money and the OW. He has made it clear - he is not going to change. your choice is simple but NOT easy. Accept that you and your children will live like this or leave

yy to womens aid too

LindenLea.

Please go and see a solicitor to see what our rights are and make a plan accordingly.

I can guarantee your life will be a lot more enjoyable and far less stressfll wen this 'man' has gone from your life.

Running your business will be a breeze without him. I guess if clients are actually put off by his behaviour normally this kind of seeps through to your professional life as well. If you're good at your job, you can always always explain your situation to your clie(a very abbreviated version) and they may understand and stay.

Hello LL, I remember you

I am really not sure why you are continuing with the joint counselling. It is never recommended where there are examples of abuse within the relationship....and yours has it in spades

It isn't helping you at all, I fear, only giving him fresh ways to fuck your head up

Cancel the joint sessions, and make some appts just for you

Try to find out why you are still with this abusive man. Find out why you are even listening to a) him b) idiot counsellors giving you poor advice designed to turn you into an empty shell of a woman

But in the meantime, it's time you left him now love...quit the shilly-shallying around

No amount of practical hurdles to jump through should stop you making a new life for yourelf that will be infinitely better than the one you are in

LL,

re your comment:-

"My mother stayed with my father in similar circumstances so the feeling of duty probably comes from her".

There's no probably about it.

Your feelings of duty are completely misplaced here. I also think your parents taught you some awfully damaging lessons on relationships when you were growing up. This was but one of many factors in becoming ideal fodder for such an abuser like the one you're currently married to.

As AF rightly says joint counselling is of NO benefit or use in situations where there is abuse present; it does not work and only gives him more ammo to throw at you and makes him do the "poor me" thang even more.
You certainly need counselling solely for your own self.

This man will completely destroy you - and your children if you stay with him. Do you want them to still learn such damaging lessons on relationships?. We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents; what are you both teaching these children here?.

Poor you. I disagree with some of the other posters, though, a little. You have had a very tough time but I would not characterise your DH as necessarily abusive - he sounds weak, incapable and a deadweight for you but I could believe that he does still love you (although he has no right to burden you just because of that at a time when you also need support). You are both depressed, in a very low place, and dragging one another down. That is tough.

I am not surprised you don't have the energy to leave atm. What you need is some stability to build up your strength and reserves. Concentrate on getting back your health - getting better from your PND and getting the baby old enough so that you are sleeping at night and having a bit of life yourself. If you do it feeling like a single parent, then just imagine that you ARE a single parent. Take over management of your own drugs - you sound capable and DH does not. Take over, if you can and this will take energy I realise you have little of, the management of household money as your DH is not to be trusted and the last thing you need is more debt.

Get friends to help - ask your MIL to have the children one day a week to give you a break. Give your DH specific tasks to do that will help you in your life. Do not expect anything back from him and then you will not be disappointed.

Once you are back on an even keel, look at the more medium term eg leaving your DH and going it alone. It will seem more possible once you have some perspective and health.

I wish you well. Oh, and who am I to give advice?

but I would not characterise your DH as necessarily abusive - he sounds weak, incapable and a deadweight for you but I could believe that he does still love you

Conflicted , this guy IS an abuser, no doubt about it. Hes a physcial abuser, emotional abuser , verbal abuser and financially abusive too .

Linden , have you spoken to womens Aid yet ? I dont think much of this counseller to be honest and i dont know why she continues to counsel you both , its not apropriate , nor is dismissing your fears about the children. You need a counseller for yourself individually , someone who sees past his nonsense , womans aid can put you in touch with one locally for free.

When i went , they initially did a risk assessment of him based on his charecter and what he does , he came back exremeley high risk which i was surprised about. They have free soliciters , people to help you in every area .

Please get in touch with womens aid and tell them whats going on.

I am just gobsmacked at what this man is doing to you. If I were you, I would pick up the phone to the poice and report him for theft and fraud, and for pushing and screaming abuse at you, in front of your children several weeks ago. Tell them it was fear that stopped you reporting it at the time, and get him arrested and out of your home. Your home that you pay for, while he is stealing money and sending it to another woman.

You know the contemptious dismissal you wrongly attributed to sunshinesbrightly in an August post? I know it was a mistake and is cleared up but i wonder how you can stand up to well to this perceived slight and yet cannot tell a liar, cheat and theif to get out of your life. You do have strength in there somewhere. Please, for your kids sake at least, dig deep and use it. He needs to go.

LL,

Your H is one of the worst example of an abuser I have ever come across on these pages.

The counsellor you were seeing previously was not even properly qualified and in her own way did an awful lot of harm.

Women can?t absorb men?s pain by allowing themselves to be abused. It helps no one.