How Do I Stop DH Being a Teenager Whilst Supporting Him in a Sad Family Situation?

[Highlander]

DH is going through a really tough time at the moment. SIL has terminal breast cancer (she is unmarried and is a hoarder) and FIL has recently had to move to a nursing home as he has moderate dementia. The ILs live in Ireland so going to see them is tricky.

But I hate, hate, hate DH and I fucking hate the way his family has dictated our lives for the last 10 years.

When I met DH, and moved in with him (I changed jobs and moved cities), DH asked where I would live. I said with him, of course, and he was a bit shocked. the condition was that his parents must never find out. I paid market-rate rent and took a month off work so sand the floors and varnish them. I had nowhere to put my clothes (DH claimed at the time he had no money to buy some drawers) and was very twitchy when i GAVE INSTRUCTIONS to a builder about getting the bathroom done. When his parents came to visit, I had to clear out all my stuff and move to a friend's for the weekend. DH insisted that all the alcohol was hidden in the garage (he would always do this).

I've never gone to my folks' for Christmas - lots of siblings, it's too noisy and I used to work and enjoy a bit of peace. DH used to freak out about this and insist I went ot his parents. This continued when we had children until I finally put my foot down.

The night before he proposed to me he phoned his best man and asked if he was doing the right thing (his best man rightly told him that only DH knew the answer to that). I'm still really hurt by this, after all, how would he have reacted if I'd not immediately accepted but said that I would like to consult my friends? I agreed to having the wedding in Ireland, but it ended up going from a small, relaxed affair to a huge white wedding full of people that I hardly knew. Then everyone freaked out because I refused to change my surname (I told DH that he could change to mine)

He's such a child (I know, most men are) and it drives me insane. He took 10 years to write up his research degree, claiming that someone else was supposed to do the statistics, OMG, every excuse under the sun. And now he's behaving like a petulent child because he's been turned down for jobs in top hospitals.

When I found out I was pregnant with DS1, DH was already overseas (I was staying behind in the UK for 3 nmonths to complete my PHD). The pregancy was unplanned and I wanted to terminate. DH refused to fly home, and was being really mean about me 'aborting his child'. I was a total mess (but didn't really realise it). I flew out, had the baby who was colicky, didn't know a soul. DH bullied me into flying back to the UK with 8 week old DS1, purely to show DS1 off to this parents. It was a ghastly time.

When DS1 was 4 months old, SIL was diagnosed with breast cancer (5 yrs ago now). DH was naturally devastated, but I had to practically shove him on the plane home to support her. He kept sayig that SIL would be OK - but I had to point out that the ILs were too elderly to travel to the city to visit her and that the family needed him (I knew FIL had early dementia at this point, although everyone else was in total denial).

And so this cycle of DH trying to garner public sympathy and trying to make me feel guilty began. In any crisis (and there have been many with FIL's dementia) DH would refuse to fly home and give MIL support. SIL was recently very ill after chemo, and again I had to say, 'they really, really need you - GO!'. He's in such childish denial that it drives me nuts. But he tries to make me feel guilty becauase I would only visit twice/year. A house with a demented old man and 2 small children is not fun. MIL refuses to visit us because FIL kicks off if she doesn't visit (apparently - she was happy to go off with SIL for 2 days to see a faith healer). DH tries to make me feel guilty about this (he works a lot of weekends), but to me it's just a fact of life when families live so far apart.

I've got to the point where I cannot live with his childish attitude. I find it difficult to get it all down, but I wish DH would find his own voice, instead of wondering what his parents owuld think, or what his peers think. A ggod example is the fact that I've not worked since DS1 was born.
As a research scientist, 7 day weeks were the norm for me, and the weekend work isn't that easily planned; if the cells need sorting out, or are good to go for an experiment, then you have to go while they look good. DH is a hospital consultant who also works weekends. I planned to take a wee while out and maybe change careers into somehting that had family-fiendly hours. There was no question that DH would reduce his hours to allow me to work. He still refuses to do that, although I now insist that he takes DS1 to school 1 morning/week. Coupled with his commute, I would have to work and do all the pick-ups from nursery/school. I just couln't cope with the stress. I've done a publishing course (but publishing hit the wall) and my one big test for a big compnay I failed. I had 3 days to complete it and the boys had a vomiting but. When they were better I asked DH to take an afternoon off work in order that I could do the test. He did, but made it clear that it was a disgrace that he had to skive off work so that I could work. He has repeatedly said that I 'change my mind every minute' about careers - FFS I have to do something differnt that fits in around his job and the kids!! But I don't know what to do! of course I'm exploring all options!

God this is an epic. I hate the way he never acts like a parent. He is a fun, fun person with the boys but never disciplines them He's very happy to wind them up, then sit back and wait for me to discipline them. Left alone with them, He'll never say, 'no, wait boys, daddy has to clear the lunch table/do the laundry etc'. It's always full on fun and attention, whereas I'm always trying to do a million things at once. he never thanks me for all the cleaning/ironing/cooking/admin.

He's having a shitty time with his family, but never calls his sister, never actively acts like the man of the family. It's like he's stuck in a a time-warp where his role in any family situation (ours or his mum/sister's) is to bhave like a petulant teenager. I CAN'T STAND IT

too long.............

"He told you from day one though, who he is."

I don't think I really noticed (or admitted) who he really was until we had children. When I stepped up to the plate of parenthood, I felt alone, despite the fact that he was mad keen to have kids and I wasn't.

So you have to lead by example - if you dont do what you want, and dont respect yourself, how can you expect him to?

I think you need to train him to be more independent. might take a while but would be worth it. what happens if you dont do something for him (eg cleaning/ironing/cooking/admin)? maybe he'll notice? maybe he'll do it? or not mind.. then you dont have to do it for him anymore. Otherwise just leave, sounds easier for sure.

Go on, get yourself a great life. xx

highlander - have oyu stolen my dh?

seriously, our lives are so parallel it is spooky.

I gave up my career to move with dh (then dp). I was "only" training, but still. no opportunity to work, at all, while abroad.

got married. had children.

now have 2 girls, and cannot see how I am supposed ot go back to work at all. don't want the girls in childcare all day, or wraparound care before/after school etc (dd1 is also disabled, so not really possible anyway), but he won't reduce hours, or even commit to 1 or 2 pick ups/drop offs a week. again, he has a commute, which makesit tricky.

it is so stifling.

I struggled when dd1 was youngergetting housework doen etc, due to her ASD. his answer was to get a cleaner. I don't want a cleaner, I want him to help out, in OUR home.

it is going ot be difficult getting dd1 and dd2 to school, as they will, of necessity be in different schools. answer? get a nanny.

brilliant that we can afford it, but not the answer ot me.
his life has not changed a jot.

same early starts, same late finishes. same dinners/corporate days/jollies. same foreign travel.

my life is unrecognisable. I am unable to work due to children, or have ot leave them in childcare (and still sort all that out). I barely get nights out with friends - he cannot make it home any earlier.

like you, I do not htink dh is intrinsically a 2bad" man. but he is selfish. he will not change anyhting. he says he will, and then doesn't. nothing that involves effort on his part, anyway.

I currentlyhave ot slog up to london each week with the dds - car, walk, train, bus to get to OT appt for dd1. all fine, but really need help on the way home, as have to wait at the bus stop on the road. he needs ot leave work at 5.30 to get across to us. without fail he is late, leaving me waiting at the OT with two tired, restless girls, with the OT wanting to close up.

it's crap.

silverfrog - why not get a cleaner? Why not get a nanny, at least part time to help you so that you have more freedom to go out and do the things you want to?

If a nanny is affordable, then isn't a good babysitter so that you can go out with your friends? Can you get a taxi to and from the OT appointment so that you are not reliant on waiting for DH?

I'm not saying that your DH should be absolved of responsiblity, but if he works long hours then he works long hours. If he is well rewarded then why not use that to make your life easier?

OK, I totally get where you are and why you are peed off with him.

I'm in kind of the same space, although the actual day to day issues are different, the symptoms and outcomes are the same.

It's early days for me, but I'll give you the advice I was given, and I'm hoping you can do something with it too.

Firstly: He IS who he is, you can't expect him to change his nature. Men don't do that. We can't take them on and then train/change them, we all know that really never ever works.

You didn't notice his not stepping up to the plate until you had DC, because you didn't really need him to step up until then.

You are a person with high expectations of yourself and of others, whether you you know it or not, you expected a certain something from him, a bare minimum. He told you he wasn't that kind of person, you heard him, but you didn't really believe him in your head.

To be utterly simplistic about this, you have at worst, got 2 options.

Option One, to let it all go and leave him/ask him to leave etc

Option Two: Deal with it and learn to work with it.

Before I get lightly toasted along the lines of Where's your 1950's time machine LMHF???

He does love you, he does love the family, he does want to stay together. The problem is that YOU feel let down, and he probably knows you feel this way and rather than bucking him out of it, it's making him retreat into himself, which only serves to infuriate you more... which in turn only makes him retreat further.

He has a clear difficulty in confrontation, in being able to stand up for himself when it comes to his parents, so how could anyone expect him to know what to do when thrust into the roll of DH and father.

I am NOT defending him here, I hate this as much as you, and I AM having very serious relationship issues of my own. But as I said, my dear friend who has had issues like this herself, has helped me to see things differently.

She has let go of her resentment, as I must do to mine. I must forgive him the abysmal treatment of me in his country, I must understand that the behaviour I have had to put up with are as a result of HIS inability to cope with the responsibility of fatherhood etc, and not my failings.

As my dear friend said last night, as powerless as we might feel right now, we do actually hold all the keys.

Understand him, understand why he can't deal with this, and understand also that you have to appreciate what he IS good at and what he is not. You ARE going to have to badger him into going to see his parents, but the alternative would be that you all traipse over as a family.... nightmare alert!!! Count your blessings!!

My DH doesn't do friends, doesn't do families, as soon as we are anywhere, he asks when we are leaving. he is a miserable bugger, but this is down to the fact that he can't face my family, who all know how awfully I suffered in his country, how badly HE was affected by culture shock after going back there after 20 years and being totally ill-equipped to deal with the scheisters and connivers that inhabit the land he left as a 19yo boy.

It's not that he doesn't care what you want, he cares deeply about it, it's just that he doesn't know how to give it to you.

Treat him as you wish to be treated yourself and coax him into the same. Tell him you think he's strong, he's marvellous and he's all the man you need... all that BS, but it's this that he's scared shitless about having lost. I know you don't feel it, and I know it's not true right now, but the man you are with, the father to your DC, the man you chose IS right there in front of you, you have to help HIM find himself.

I dunno if this is the silver bullet, it's what I was told last night, and it seems to be at least another way to fight the fire, it might work, it might not, but I'll never know if I don't try.

My DH adores DS, DS adores DH. DH isn't even a good dad, he does nothing spontaneously, they almost compete for my attention without either of them ever stopping to think if perhaps Mum'd fancy a cuppa, or a 5min break...

I owe my DS one more chance with DH, I owe DH one more chance to help find himself, 10 years together is a tricky time.

I may have started to ramble now, slightly hung over from last night...

oh LMHF, I feel slightly teary reading your very eloquent post. You very neatly have hit the nail on the head.

Silverfrog - I feel like I have a gem compared to you. That's awful not pulling his weight for hospital appts. Your DH's reactions are exactly like mine. The responsibility for domestic chores lies with us, thus if there's a problem we have to sort it out. God forbid they take on any responsibility!

Alibaba, yes, I can see that side to it.

BUt, tbh, having a cleaner wasn't possible when dd1 was small -when it was really necessary. She freaked at the sound of a vaccuum cleaner, she worried if anyone cleaned the bathroom.I did not want to have to go out with her constantly every time the cleaner came (ever tried slooging around the shops with a disinterested toddler, who screams for no apparent reason if oyu go into a shop, then screams again as you leave. it's very dispiriting.

what I needed was for him to pull his weight a bit.

I do know that it is great that we can afford these things. we are very lucky in that respect. but no amount of money makes up for only seeign your husband for maybe 8 hours in the week. that isn't what I signed up for (and told him so at the time)

a babysitter isn't an option - dd1 has had huge sleep issues recently, and has taken us more than a year of gentle coaxing to get her to go to sleep. she refused point blank to do so with a sitter, and it just made her anxieties worse.

a nanny makes sense now, in a way, because of the different school runs etc. because dh cannot (will not) commit ot being home on time for anything, it means a live in nanny, should I want ot ever do anything at all.

I don't really want a stranger living in our house.

I resent that it is all give on my part - no flexing form him at all. as I said earlier, nothing, not a single thing haschanged inhis life since having the girls. holidays? yes, we have them, but I plan it all (in my non-existent flexi time in between OT appts, looking after a toddler, doing 160 miles a day to get dd1 to school, at one point)

education tribunal? oh yes, I do all the paperwork fo rthat too.

finding therapists for dd1? yes that's down to me too.

dh is just too busy with his longhours, you see.

oh, and he fully supports me in whatever I want ot do - go back to work, stay at home, my choice.

but it isn't. because he won't change a single thing. so we get a nanny, and I do some work - who do you think will sort out the school runs etc when the nanny is on holiday or ill? won't be him takin gtime off, I shouldn't think.

LMHF - I can see what you are saying, but I'm not sure I can be a big enough person to get over the resentment I feel sometimes

ah silverfrog, I see you're married to DH's twin...........

but what can we do about them?

believe me Highlander, I was howling myself last night.. it was quite an epiphany for me.

It's working for my friend, I'll hope it works for me, and who knows, letting go of it all and working with what you've been given might work for you too.

I'm not an academic, but I'm a bit of a go-getter IYKWIM, my friend is very clever, very successful and like me pulled more than her fair share of the weight of the household preDC. On some level, we expected as that as WE were right up there pulling our financial weight, while we were working, that when we shifted to the home to raise their DC, that it was THEIR turn to step up... they are more than capable.

seems the strong women that we are and attracted them to us in the first place, blazes such a trail that our handing the baton over to them, seemingly results in them potentially freezing like rabbits caught in the glare of oncoming responsibility.

Women go through transitions from girl to woman, to motherhood, we have to adapt, we have to change. Men don't have to in quite the same way. They are seemingly more naturally hard-wired than we women are.

Reassure, stroke, stroke, build them up and manage their load... Men such as these are NOT capable of what we are capable of, not on their own or without our support anyway.

Yeah it IS pathetic, yeah it is a huge let down, but we DO hold all the keys to get them back on track. They actually don't.

Behind every successful man is a woman.... sound familiar????

Karmanomore: many good points.

Up until 48 hours ago I'd have agreed with the stay put and pretend to be happy.

Apparently there is another way. Staying put and choosing to be happy. I know, I know, i was too.

But the schema of 'pretending to be happy' is just going to fuel the fire of resentment and it's the resentment and naturally ensuing passive agression that completes the vicious cycle.

I think regaining financial independence is an excellent idea, not only for our own self esteem but also that it will help even out the balance of the dreaded R word for them, Reponsibility....

I don't want to live like this anymore, but I don't want to chuck it all away just like that, especially has DS and DH do love each other so much, ideally it IS a better idea to try to get things back on track.

Now, not wanting too give TMI, and agreed there was alcohol involved, but for the first time in 3 or 4 days we actually spoke to one another last night, I didn't call him out on stuff, I let him say what he wanted to say, gently corrected him on a few things, but allowed him to keep his 'face' as it were.

Long story short, we made up and he feels all loved up again, so will not be the grumpy bugger that he was, which will help him stop bloody moaning, which will help me not get my hackles up....

Early days, we'll see....

Highlander lots of good advice on this thread already but what occurs to me is - you need to work. You don't sound like a natural SAHM (I don't mean that at all rudely, I don't think I'm one myself, I work p-t - and I am not slagging off SAHMs either - it's just that you sound forced into that role and like it's wrong for you). All your sense of responsibility and organisation is going on trying to force your DH to step up while running his life for him and it's driving you mad.

I know you're trying to put things in place to work but more immediately, I'd think about getting any p-t job you can and sorting out childcare, just to get out and have a different focus.

I don't have the same frustrations as you but one thing rings a bell - my DP is similar in treating his family like crap while getting all self-pitying about their woes (my FIL is also v ill). He'd forget their birthdays and never phone them if I didn't remind him. I just have to step back. I'll remind about birthdays but I stop myself going on about it or doing it all myself. It's his problem and while I instinctively feel guilty about it, I have to see that's ridiculous - he wouldn't give a toss (or even know) if I forgot my mum's birthday!

A very good book is The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner. It shows you how to step back and let the other person have their own problems and stop trying to change them - and also how to change yourself instead (which tends to result in them changing too). I really am not a self-help type but someone recommended this book and it has helped me.

Absolutely, i agree with you entirely, i think it's the domestic woman that most intimidates them actually... cos it puts the onus on them.

I know how you feel, I know how tiring it is, how dull and boring it is to be the only one that gets things done. I too, up till yesterday was firmly on the way out of the door, but I'll give this new way of thinking a go.... can't hurt can it? and if it doesn't work at least I'll know i tried it all...

The leaving thing is good for our freedom, in so far as you call the shots, you make the decisions and don't have to factor some stroppy blob of laziness/inaction into the equation, i can see that. It removes that grey area of the potential for thinking ooh will dh finally step up and bloody do something???... answer, NO.. of course not...

But the thing we are left with is that it's ALL on our shoulders anyway.... so the fecker flaming well gets permanently off the hook..

Getting back on our feet, and getting a routine that works and ideally duties that can be edged in his direction gradually... here's hoping it works...

lovely talking with you karma! thanks!

I've deleted the exasperated post I just wrote! You're right, you do all sound like 1950s housewives ... still, you're thinking of getting jobs. That was quite a radical move for Mrs 1959! Good to see you moving into the 1960s, ladies.

Don't forget to backcomb, now

Oh this is really doing my head in now. You poor girls but FFS THIS IS THE 21ST CENTURY!

Men are NOT biologically these more than human creatures who are somehow more important than women, yet completely incapable of wiping their own arses or showing any consideration for their OWN FAMILIES. They are behaving like this to you, as though you are servants/appliances/property/pets because they WANT to, and because they are making use of the centuries of cultural and superstitious conditioning which tells them (quite wrongly, with no factual basis at all) that men are more important than women, that women exist only in relation to and for the benefit of men.
I appreciate that you are mostly stuck now because of economics and having DC but you need to concentrate on fighting your own corners and that of the DC as much as possible, trying to 'accept' that you are nothing more than a fuckhole with built in hoover attachments and childminding programme and be happy about it will send you mad.

Agree with SGB really. You can't make someone change, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't change. What you can do is step back from enabling them and simultaneously being on their case all the time, do what you need to do for yourself and your own sanity and let them sink or swim. And stop being a parent to someone who isn't your child.

I know it's hard - I am going through something similar though with a family member not my DP, so it's slightly easier as I don't live with them - but its also very freeing.

Everything SGB said.

Life really, really doesn't have to be that complicated.

Been there.

Never again.

Listen to her, and do something to improve your own life. You are not responsible for his happiness.

To think that you are is preumptuous, and crushing for you.

presumptuous

People don't change

So you either have to put up with him the way he is or leave him

It really is as simple as that

I don't understand how you've allowed your career to drift away

What was the point of all that training if you were going to do that?

Seriously, why would you do that? It makes no sense ...

Quattrocento: because having a womb renders you so mysteriously powerful, men are secretly afraid of you. But, paradoxically, your powers are useless without A Partner (Male). You mustn't scare your poor little Male away so you have to pretend that HE is the one with The Powers and you are weak.

See? if you let him think he's the Master and you're the Servant, you can retain your mysterious powers & he'll be none the wiser.
Of course, you may never actually use your Powers, or he'll twig. And then you'd lose them.

It's perfectly logical when you think about it.

Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Yes, but if you are of the Mysterious Powerful Womb school of thought, presumably you wouldn't bother doing years of training.

For people who have been trained to think, none of this is logical or coherent. There must be some odd forces at work.

believe me, I'm as fed up with it as anyone can imagine, but leaving is not the only answer.

I've spent 4 fuckingyears in hell and to walk away now, back in free land, seems daft. I couldn't cope in that hell hole of a country, where women really do live in the 1950s, and I cried almost every day. Everyday in the same life, with the same shit on telly, staring at the same walls, cos I couldn't cope with walking with the freaks that inhabit that asylum. Did he walk off and leave me? No.

He's insecure, he's weak and he's frightened. Oh it's so easy to say, ARGH, grow a pair, get your arse in gear, step up and do something. I've tried that, it doesn't work.

He doesn't fit in in his land, he doesn't fit in here, he has a family which he loves, but in his land men do jack diddley squat. That literally god forsaken place saps the life and confidence from anyone unfortunate enough to live there. Now he hasn't got the confidence to stand apart from them in his land, has no friends here - we've moved from London into the country, so know practically no-one yet.

I don't just sit back and take it, I do tell him that his 4yo can dress himself, get his own juice, put his toys away etc so DH can be expected to straighten up after himself.

He was pretty well trained before we left the UK, but has reverted due to the pressure of the life out there.

I am not trying to accept that I am a fuckhole with a hoover attachment! Honestly how dare you!

That's deeply disgusting and ridiculously offensive.

I am just NOT trying to be happy about it, I am trying to back off the juice a bit to regain the ground I lost when I lost my income/job/self.

It's a tactic to get us back to where we once were. The position you describe SGB is powerless. The position I know I hold, in fact holds all the power. I AM fighting my corner, and that of my DS, but going head-to-head will not win here. I know, cos i've tried it.

You clearly have not read, nor thought about anything I have said. If life were all about putting on a happy face and allowing things to continue on and it's all OK and smashing, Don't you think I'd have tried that at some point in the 4 flaming years stuck in the hell of a life I have just left????

What you are talking about is delusion, and leads to madness. What I am talking about is not a delusion, it is a change in behaviour to achieve an end result. A fuckhole with a fucking hoover attachment doesn't have the luxury of tactics.

I don't know if it's going to work, but at least I'm trying to do something. My whole point is exactly what MarineIguana is saying, to back off, not allowing them to get away with it, to encourage them to change, cos it has to come from them. I can't make him change, he has to want to. Me yelling at him will not make him change, it will only entrench him (and me) further.

The change in attitude is a regrouping activity, a change to try to remove pressure from myself, and from him and defuel the downward spiral.

After living in literally 1950s abuseland hell, I know the value of female equality, I know how important it is, and to give up on it is to give up on all aspects of life. I feel personally responsible to my foremothers to honour the sacrifices and risks they took so that I do have rights, that I am seen as a full human being.

It's so fucking easy for the same old same old to swan in, shriek leave him, insult someone with a different and new tactic of trying to make life better for everyone in my family.

All I'm suggesting is to be a little bit more clever, to try once more, but with eyes open and fixed on the prize, not bumbling through with blinkers on.