Patronising DH

[fedora]

I have a problem that has been going on in my marriage since the beginning of relationship really, over 8 years. I don't like the way DH talks to me at times. I find it very, very patronising. He can also be very critical but he has worked hard at this. But there are times when I just think he's being a twat. He knows that I find one or two household chores a real struggle because I used to suffer from OCD a long time ago, and recently had therapy for perfectionism. We have a new chest of drawers for DS and I was putting clothes into it today, with DH and DS helping. DH knows I find this stressful and I got into a bit of a tizz about what should go where. But instead of helping me today with this, he says "it doesn't need to be optimum, it just needs to be good enough." Which I find extremely irritating as it is finding the 'good enough' that is exactly what I struggle with! And that didn't answer my question on a practical level.

Last night, when I asked him a question about how many portions of (microwavable fresh food) was left, he didn't answer, just gave me a look. Finally he said that I should be able to work it out for myself because I'd bought the food. I don't know why he can't just tell me the answer! I said he was being a twat, and he said well I knew the answer, why did I ask. The reason was because it wasn't as simple as knowing how many portions I bought, as the boys had some and I didn't know how much as DH fed them. But even if there was no reason, why couldn't he just answer the question? And why did he ignore me when I first asked? I said he was being a twat, he got offended.

I feel he very quick to get irritated with me and I've had enough of it. It makes me quite nervous to do things in front of him sometimes.

I said something today about not knowing how to mend a hole in DS's shorts and DH rolled his eyes. He is so clipped and impatient with me. We have huge arguments because of the way we speak to each other and we don't seem to move forward. I hate it. I see other couples who seem to talk to each other with respect and affection all the time. It makes me very jealous.

Sorry, just needed to rant

Oh gosh, this sounds really difficult.

It does sound as though theyr may be a respect issue, particularly if he is rolling his eyes at you. That must be really upsetting when you know you mean no harm.

I'm not sure what to suggest but hope you get some useful advice on here x

btw what strikes me is that you have both had the guts and commitment to work on the aspects of your characters that annoy each other, and that is a very good thing.

I wonder though if it needs some more work or discussion? Sounds as though there is still a gap in understanding why you behave the way you do etc.

Thanks

He rolled his eyes because he does most of the DSS's sewing and he thought it was me leaving him to do it. But I don't know how to mend this hole, I wasn't asking for him to do it, and I really hate someone rolling their eyes at me.

Can you please elaborate? What do you mean about not knowing how to mend the hole, and what did you say about it?
Thanks!

gosh, that's perceptive, I think you've summed it up well and with a positive slant I appreciate.

We have had joint counselling and also individual counselling. The former wasn't very successful, and I ended up ending it. DH actually carried on until the money ran out.
We have come a long way, but I still have a massive issue with the way he speaks to me somtimes, I find him really patronising, and so defensive. It is particularly bad when he is very tired, which he is today because of DSs. I want to go to relate, he's agreed in principle but dragging his heels.

It sounds like he doesn't fully understand your issues and how hard you have worked to overcome them. Have you tried to explain how you feel or has it gone beyond that? Would counselling help? Even if he doesn't go with you (and I have a feeling he might be reluctant) but maybe it could help you develop some ways in which to deal with(and potentially change) his demoralising behaviour.

OK, I'm diving in with half the information ... sorry if I seem to have misunderstood.

While not knowing what you said, I get the impression it's VERY important to you that the hole gets mended perfectly? And you weren't confident in how to go about it?

I accept that such a thing might be a big issue with you (and am much relieved to hear you're working on it.) Your anxiety might have led to you "thinking out loud", saying things like "I don't know how to mend this, should it be on the reverse, etc, etc." To somebody who is more confident about sewing - ie, him - this IS going to sound like a manipulative attempt to get him to do it. You didn't mean it that way, but it's how it sounds.

Had I been a similar situation to your DH, I would have had an instantly resentful reaction to the perceived manipulation. Then I would have reviewed that in the light of your OCD, and tried to come up with a non-resentful reaction. It is quite likely I would have rolled my eyes.

Please can you match him, second-thought for second-thought? What you really wanted, presumably, was advice on the mending. So, instead of letting your OCD run away with your mouth, breathe for a second and then say what you REALLY mean - in this case, "DH, I want to mend this hole but I need your advice. Better to do it this way, or that way?"

He might still roll his eyes - but the difference, this time, should be that he does it affectionately/indulgently. And then advises.

Is this any help at all?

Try counselling and set some ground rules.

eg he tries to act in a more sympathetic and open way and be more patient with you.

You try not to get upset with him. Maybe you can say something when he starts on you such as you are starting again.

If you both genuinely love each other you can both compromise and find a way around the problem - it might take some effort on both your parts but it will be worth it.

I have explained a million times!

My parents were shit to me as a child. Very, very critical and controlling. These days I am a pretty confident person generally, have done lots of big things, but I still struggle with some small things like putting clothes away. Yes, I am odd. But it gets me in a bit of a flap. He knows this fine well, and so I find his comment about making it good enough really patronising. Particularly as his way of putting away clothes is in a shove it all in together way, don't bother matching socks or putting like in with like. So that's hardly good enough. I wanted us to agree where things went together. Instead of trying to gently keep me calm, he gets irritated. Then he has the audacity to say I should know I have a problem with putting away clothes and admit that.

I wonder how much I actually like him tbh. I just find myself thinking a lot that he acts like a twat. He gets irritated very easily, particularly when he is tired which he is today because of DS last night and work.

I don't think it's healthy to think your DH is being a twat a lot of the time, is it?

my 'explained a million times' comment is in response to lazarub's question btw.

I have to go now, will be back later.

I'm probably going to get flamed for saying this but you sound like a very difficult person to live with Fedora. Do you have a sense of humour about anything? I would find it difficult to like someone that takes unimportant things so seriously and get so bent out of shape about trivial details.

Have you ever tried to put yourself into his shoes and see yourself from him point of view? You sound as if you're very quick to get irritated with him also, and my husband would be just as offended if i called him a twat.

I don't think its necessarily your DH's role to 'gently keep you calm' - are you a child? - maybe it would help to work on changing your own reaction to situations because it can't always be his fault.

Ok, am back. IsGrace, you have got the wrong end of the stick

I don't have OCD. I used to, possibly, it was never diagnosed and was when I was a teenager. I did have therapy for perfectionism a few years ago, the psychologist I saw didn't think I had OCD and thought I made big progress. I did, but still struggle with perfectionism occasionally.

I didn't actually care about the hole in DS's trousers at all! What happened was that I noticed a pair of trousers needed a minor repair (fine). But I also realised that it had two big gashes in, looks like DS had cut the fabric twice, although eh claims not. But I felt the trousers were beyond repair and was going to throw them away. DH however felt that the holes were repairable and said 'one of us should mend them'. Which is when I said I didn't know how to fix that, and he rolled his eyes to himself because he thought I was sticking him with the work and taking the piss.

Not your husbands job to "gently keep you calm" it's your job to gently keep you calm.

Wind down. You sound VERY quick to perceive critisism, probably because you lived with it as a child. he hasn't criticised you, so you shouldn't react as if he has.

OK, 'gently keep me calm' is not the best way of putting it. I meant to indulge me a little with that. DH has things he doesn't like doing, like paperwork and finance stuff, and I often do things like that for him or cut him some slack with that.

I agree I can be quick to perceive criticism. I will try to work on it! The examples I gave here don't do my issues justice though probably, DH can be very critical and I know that others have had that problem with him. His own brother told him off for the way he would speak to me last year.

I do have a sense of humour, kiwi, thanks for asking, just not tonight.

None of the examples you have given sound particularly patronizing. The comment about "make it good enough" actually sounded like genuine advice. Patronizing would have been "oh here we go again" or "come on make a decision for heaven's sake".

However it does sound like there is much misunderstanding and resentment between you at the moment.

Fwiw, Mr Sawdust and I flare up at each other all the time. In fact, we just did so ten minutes ago because I hadn't put the ironing board down. He pulled a face and made a criticism and proceded to start tidying it away. At which I flared up because I hadn't finished ironing and I complained (loudly) about his unwarranted criticism. Anyway, to cut the boring story short, we both realised we were over reacting and started pulling faces at each other instead. Which made us laugh, diffusing the situation and preventing a full blown row.

Try it. Try turning a flare up into an opportunity for a giggle at yourselves. It has saved us an awful lot of unnecessary bad feeling.

I am so nervous of saying anything you might take the wrong way, Fedora! And that's just from 20 minutes' correspondence ..!

You seem incredibly fragile. I'm 'walking on eggshells' around you, and I don't even know you. Like others here, I'd like to try and reframe your DH's responses in a more positive light. "Good enough" is a VERY important concept, especially for those of us who never were 'good enough' for our parents. Mine used to say "Your best isn't good enough!" Did yours do that, too? It leaves you feeling like nothing will do but perfection - and that you can never be perfect enough.

Looking at it from a distance, now we're all grown-ups, that is a ridiculous value system. it can never work. Now, I know you're doing therapy around this so I don't expect a few lines in a post to make a whole bunch of difference. But I do want to affirm what you're learning with therapy - and what DH is telling you. Good enough is good enough. I've got a great big poster on my wall, reminding me of exactly that!

I think you need to discuss this with him, because he seems to be trying, quite sweetly, to help you re-train yourself to more workable values. Odd socks really don't matter, you know. I am sure they matter to you, but what's going to happen if the socks are jumbled?

I've just done some housework for the first time in 2 months. I smoke & have a cat, so you can imagine what my house was like this morning! I chose NOT to clean, because I needed to prove to myself that the world won't explode if the floors are dirty. I'm not saying you should do this ... just trying to illustrate what I think DH is trying to convey to you. I think he's trying to help, and not in a mean way at all.

Hmm. Just seen your other post, where you said his brother pulled DH up on the way he speaks to you. What does he say about this, himself? Does he find your need for precision irritating, or demanding? Does he feel HE can't be 'good enough' around you; feeling defensive about that?

Or does he patronise everybody?? In which case, it might be that you're both insecure prefectionists!! Maybe you could just score each other's efforts all the time, at least you'd get a laugh out of it ...

Thanks for this: "I felt the trousers were beyond repair ... DH however said 'one of us should mend them'. Which is when I said I didn't know how to fix that, and he rolled his eyes to himself because he thought I was sticking him with the work"

And why not stick him wth the work? It was his view they should be fixed. I wouldn't have said "I don't know how to do that." I would have said, "Well, your choice. I say bin them, but you can mend them if you want."

No need to highlight your needlework skills in this case

Grace, I can assure you I'm not a complete neat freak! Seriously, sorting clothes is my big weakness. I was a perfectionist, am reformed to a large degree, it doesn't affect other areas of my life these days after the therapy I DID have (but are no longer having).

Believe me, I know that good enough is good enough. DH has been telling me for 8 years, for one thing! I think that's part of why I found it irritating. My clothes are all in piles on my bedroom floor - which DH finds immesnely irrtating - because I have a block about putting them away. Hence my stressy fit today. I know it's ridiculous. But otherwise I just get on with things and live a pretty full and happy life. I have had some success in a demanding profession and have had articles (on my area of expertise) published. I have also travelled round India by myself fairly recently. These are things I wouldn't be able to do if I was stressing out about every little detail, anally neat and wanting others to manage me like a child.

DH's criticism that his brother picked up on had nothing to do with my perfectionism. I do feel nervous doing things around DH sometimes though because, perversely, he has a 'right' way to do things, rather than a 'good enough' way. Youre right, btw, about what I should ave said to him today about the trousers.

MrsSawdust, I really like your idea!

I do think kiwi may have a point. I dare say the problems in your marriage and the way in which you relate to one another are a two way street!

Thank you
You sound great - and congratulations on becoming less than perfect! (Now how often do you get to say that??!)

Mutual recognition & a little more piss-taking sounds like way forward. Good luck!

Hi Fedora,
I am glad you are working on yourself. It does take a bold stroke or a leap to see yourself in context and admit a change is in your best interest. Wish my sister would.

My impression from your posts is that you are being triggered by these interactions. And once the trigger is tripped, your responses are relying on a reflexive mode of defensiveness. I don't want to offend, but that might be your reptile brain taking control. The 'count to ten' advice is so widely dispersed because that pause gives the educated/civilized brain a chance to chime in on the issue. This idea is from the book "Emotional Intelligence" by Daniel Goleman (amazon).

So try to audition other responses when you start to feel the flood of emotions engulfing you.

Another idea is from a book called the Wizard of Oz and other narcissists...(I am definitely not suggesting that there is any narcissism to deal with here). The idea is that when we are children we develope methods of survival (emotional or even physical) that work for us as children. As we mature into adults those methods still work, but...it is like wearing a clunky suit of armour-it doesn't really adapt into the reality of adult/mature relationships (public or private). So those methods need to be rennovated or redefined to fit into the adult context-like a sleek suit of kevlar and teflon.

Hi Grace,
My house is a mess because...
ha ha ho ho ok here come the excuses...
When I was growing up there were rooms in the house we were not allowed to enter except on very very special occasions. It was like a museum. So we live in all the rooms in our house and well, it looks it! It is definitely not a museum here.

Also, as an aside, sorry fedora for a slight highjack- Grace, I came across my notes about the over-functioning/under-functioning concept. It is in the book "The Dance of Anger" by Harriet Lerner. I can not remember if it was you who asked me about the source when I mentioned it ages ago on another thread.

Lol and yes, Stuffed Thank you!

please don't call him a twat, whatever happens

I don´t think your husband is patronising.

I think he is trying his very best to let you live how you want to tbh.

Re the microwaved food-why did you not just ask how much he´d used so you could calculate yourself?