Can he change? What should I do?

[ExasperatedNo2]

Have namechanged as I'm on local searches and don't want anyone to recognise me.

I have been reading the relationships section for a while but never posted. Have been sort of 'gathering' information from it though. Have read Lundy Bancroft and Pat Evan's books.

I have been married for 6 years, together 7. The first 3 were fine between us (we have 1 Dc - born 2 years in) but I did notice some aggression and nastiness towards cashiers in shops etc(funny how most EA men are so similar), the last 3 have been really bad. He has been Verbally Abusive. If we have a normal everyday disagreement (ie me getting annoyed if he is late) he will go completely over-the-top , saying the most horrible things you wouldn't believe , like he tells me he doesn't love our child (not in front of her, but still), my face 'annoys' him etc etc etc.
Finally I got sick of it after a particularly bad outburst 2 weeks ago and threw him out to live the other flat we own (usually rented out but vacant for the summer) and have only spoken to him re-access to DD and finances. We both work so with tax credits could run separate households.

Tbh although I still love parts of him deep down, the abusive parts overshadow any good in our relationship. I have given him chance after chance to go to counselling etc and he never has, but before I always went back but now I have well and truly had enough.

Last week he rang me crying and begging and pleading for another chance, said he will go to counselling himself to learn how to stop his anger before it starts.

Naturally I didn't believe him so continued only to speak about DD and finances.

He has now actually been to see a counsellor (he says) twice, at £40 a session , paid for himself. He wants me to give him another chance.

I think he thinks it's a quick fix and keeps going on about how we can't split our family up etc.
I told him I'm too scared of him ever speaking to me like that again and I don't know how I feel about him now - just numb I guess. He said if he ever speaks to me like that again he will leave of his own accord and seems really upset

I suppose what I'm trying to ask is - can men like this really change? and can relationships be salvaged?

I refuse to walk around on eggshells all the time so I know it's over if he doesn't change.
He has promised in the past but still been verbally abusive. Although never had counselling before.

So can men like this ever change their behaviour? Or do they just change to a different way of doing it? What is a suitable time frame for us to be split up before we decide whether to try again?

Or am i just being silly in hoping that he really means it this time if he continues with the counselling? Once an abuser always an abuser?

Wise MN's please help

No. Stick to your guns.

You will always be able to get back together later if you have alot of evidence that he has changed (if ever that happens)

I don't beleive he can, no

I believe his undertaking to go to counselling is a last-ditch attempt to hang onto you, because this time he senses you really are at the end of your tether (especially as you have given him so many chances previously)

I would walk away, tbh and not listen to any more emotional blackmail

Up to you whether you want to give him another chance, but be fully prepared to have to chuck him out again. Personally I'd reckon that no counselling could "fix" someone who could say horrible things about not loving his own child, and "we can't split the family up" sounds a bit thin after such remarks. Maybe I'm just prejudiced because "you're splitting the family up" was XH's favourite line, one which the DCs temporarily bought, but it's straight from the Abuser's Handbook Chapter 5: "What to do when you suspect she really means business". As is the sudden conversion to the virtues of counselling, which they previously despised.

My view then: he's textbook, and they don't change.

I really am at the end of my tether - you are right. Why didn't he go to counselling before when he was hurting me so much? Why now when he really has lost me? It's all about HIM and what he has lost, not about my feelings. grrr.
But then I think about the times we used to get on and the changes he did make for me about other things and I'm tempted to see if he can change, even if just to prove to myself that I'm right and he can't really ever change (or not for long)?

He will need more than a few sessions of therapy to sort himself out.

From what you describe, there seems to be an innate sense of nastiness in this man.

As harsh as it seems, I think you should just look out for yourself and the little one from now on.

I know Annie - that is what I said to him. He sure didn't care about the family a few weeks ago when he was saying he was leaving for 2 months and "f* the lot of you"

Says he doesn't know why he does it, only that he always has and that if he feels threatened in any way he goes over-the-top in trying to hurt them back. So normal family/couple disagreements can't happen without complete verbal-nastiness-meltdown. He says he knows it not right and he promises to stop, but he has never went to this anger-management counselling he is seemingly going to now. The fact he is going to counselling makes me want to see if it could work.
I take no blame for his behaviour and am fully prepared to walk away if it happens again.
We are both actually financially better off living apart and separated, so that can't be his reason for wanting back.

He wants to move back in straight away, I have told him under no circumstances as it wouldn't be right for me. The wanting to come straight back strikes me as not very committed to change though. If I do say we will try if counselling is successful how long should I stay away for? How will I know counselling is working? Will the counsellor tell him when he is apparently 'cured'?

I actually believe they can but they need to
realise they are in the wrong and not project and really get to the bottom of the issues and truly work on them. I display some EA traits, ( (a world of anger inside) and I am dedicated to getting to the bottom of them. I was brought up in an abusive way.

Honestly 2 sessions isnt going to do jack, Ive had counselling before and now Im in a psychotherapy and Im on my 4th week and there is NO CHANCE that I am "changed". None whatsoever. Anyone who says they are is a fantasist ( or manipulator!)

Being honest with myself Im sure it will take months and months and months. However, Im in it for the long haul and Im not doing it to prove anything to anyone, I have been really unhappy, I have got a lot of issues that need be resolved.

I think its a good idea to be realistic and expect that he shall have to continue to live elsewhere until you feel confident about his functioning and that it will be a safe environment for you and your little girl. If he really is committed to therapy then he would be suggesting this anyway. The problem is as Anyfucker suggests, he could move back in and give up counselling or worse lie and say he is going when not, and your position is significantly weakened.

Out of interest does his therapist do couple sessions? Once a few months have passed and if he is still going! might she see both of you together, I know some will do this, but it is fairly rare.

Good luck with it love from 1foot xx

Well, you could give him another chance and watch him fail...

That would be rather soul-destroying for you though, and confusing for dc

It would also make him better at hiding his contempt for you...and he will bide his time until he can start ramping it up again

The trouble is...your sense of self gets worn away every time this cycle repeats itself

Three years is a long time for one person to be trying to mend a marriage

Like you said...too little, too late from him

Now he is shitting himself he has pushed you too far and will agree to anything

The signs are not good

relationship counselling where there is abuse within it is not recommended...it just makes the abuser cleverer and gives them more ammunition to hurt you

Anger management also not useful....unless he is verbally abusive to strangers, his boss, his mates etc etc....he has a problem with you, not a problem with managing his anger

Thanks for both replies

You are both probably right, it's just that I still have a small hope that he might be serious about changing. But then I think to myself that if he really cared for me and DD he would recognise he has to stay away for a significant period of time. He says that he thinks I won't love him by then and will have moved on - says he will still try it but we will never get back together that way. Still seems manipulative, no?

Yeah the signs are not good.

And confusing for DD, yes.

He is seeing a general all-round counsellor for one-to-one sessions (looked the name up on the internet). Relationships, bereavment, anger, addiction etc. Not relationship counselling.

What kind of counselling should he be having do you think?

Definately won't let him move back in until he has completed months and even then IF that happens, will do it gradually.

Think Iam flogging a dead horse with this one though, but I just can't seem to give up until all avenues have been explored, although I know what he has done is a very vaild reason to divorce and never speak to him (other than DD-related) again.

Thanks for both replies

You are both probably right, it's just that I still have a small hope that he might be serious about changing. But then I think to myself that if he really cared for me and DD he would recognise he has to stay away for a significant period of time. He says that he thinks I won't love him by then and will have moved on - says he will still try it but we will never get back together that way. Still seems manipulative, no?

Yeah the signs are not good.

And confusing for DD, yes.

He is seeing a general all-round counsellor for one-to-one sessions (looked the name up on the internet). Relationships, bereavment, anger, addiction etc. Not relationship counselling.

What kind of counselling should he be having do you think?

Definately won't let him move back in until he has completed months and even then IF that happens, will do it gradually.

Think Iam flogging a dead horse with this one though, but I just can't seem to give up until all avenues have been explored, although I know what he has done is a very vaild reason to divorce and never speak to him (other than DD-related) again.

Sorry for double-post - don't know what happened there.

Usually it is me, his mum and his brother he is like that with. But occasionally strangers he thinks are having a go at him - like when his friend questioned our choice of school for DD - a bit to be doing that but most people could handle - not

Seems like an angry little boy when challenged.

not DH

I have asked both therapists I have seen in the last year this very same question.

They have both said that, yes, they can change. They were both quite sure about it. I have done the freedom programme,and I am aware of the Lifeline project that is run here, which is a YEAR long equivilant for abusers. And it works.

BUT!!!!!!

The men involved have to

1: Fully...really FULLY accept what they are, and the damage it has done.

2: REALLY want to face up to the very horrid stuff that made them like that in the first place, which extremely difficult to do.

3: carry on being committed to that process.

So you can see why it really doesn't happen very often. Added to the fact that society generally still thinks that it's ok to treat women like shit.

" But then I think to myself that if he really cared for me and DD he would recognise he has to stay away for a significant period of time. He says that he thinks I won't love him by then and will have moved on - says he will still try it but we will never get back together that way. Still seems manipulative, no? "

Yes it totally is. totally.

Seems rather about possessing you as opposed to having a relationship where you can make each other happy. the old adage "if you love someone set them free" comes to mind.

Dare I say it it also misses the point totally of counselling and what its for. If he thinks you wont love him more, then he hasnt listened to what you have said. Clearly, his behaviour was so dreadful you had to kick him out.

Does he truly think you loved him prior to him leaving.

I have to say the more you say the more it sounds all about him.

Love from 1foot x

I think you are going to give him another chance so I will say good luck and I hope it works out x

You will be making a humungous mistake if he moves back in straight away though, or even within at least 6 months

He needs consequences...if life goes back to virtually normal (for him) what is the point ???

he has to show you by actions, not words, how, in future, he is going to put you and DD first

It seems at the momnt he has no impulse-control an he learned that from his family upbringing

20 years of conditioning is not going to change in a few weeks is it ? If at all ? The problem is, the victims in this are you and DD

What would you say to her 15 years time, if she came to her mum asking for advice in the same situation ?

Thanks ThisIsHowIFeel

I don't know if he meets all these 4 conditions. Just think he has some crazy issues coming from childhood probably. Always feels insecure, never good enough etc so has to 'make up for it' by being obnoxious. Can't have a debate/disagreement like an adult.

It's not my problem to fix though, it's his .

I had a horrendous childhood, but I manage not to take it out on others and treat them with respect.

He says there must be something wrong with him, and he doesn't want to throw family and me away so he went to the counsellor. I can't have him here for me and DD sake right now, but it seems very cruel of me to say 'never again' after a child together and 6 years married, if he is serious about changing now then it seems cruel, if he isn't and after counselling is the same I'd feel justified in leaving without a backwards glance.

Thanks ThisIsHowIFeel

I don't know if he meets all these 4 conditions. Just think he has some crazy issues coming from childhood probably. Always feels insecure, never good enough etc so has to 'make up for it' by being obnoxious. Can't have a debate/disagreement like an adult.

It's not my problem to fix though, it's his .

I had a horrendous childhood, but I manage not to take it out on others and treat them with respect.

He says there must be something wrong with him, and he doesn't want to throw family and me away so he went to the counsellor. I can't have him here for me and DD sake right now, but it seems very cruel of me to say 'never again' after a child together and 6 years married, if he is serious about changing now then it seems cruel, if he isn't and after counselling is the same I'd feel justified in leaving without a backwards glance.

Have also namechanged to post. I'm in the same situation. Dh has become increasingly unreasonable and aggressive in the past 6 months. We've been married for 12 years, have two dc - both with SN - and I am terribly unhappy but seemingly unable to do anything decisive. The dc are also suffering from dh's temper and moods but they are equally (?) terrified of divorce.

Agony. So scared!

What is EA? Who are Lundy Bancroft and Pat Evan?

The other point here, which is equally valid, is...why are YOU conditioned into not mattering...to the point where you may "pass it on"?

It's all well and good expecting them to change, but we do have a role too, in maintaining very solid boundaries of what is and is not acceptable behaviour. And when it is not acceptable...DOING something about it.

That may also mean facing up to stuff in our own lives that is deeply distressing.

Thank you so much 1foot and Anyfucker

I explained to him that I had to leave because his behaviour was dreadful and the only acceptable level of abuse is NONE (stole this from a thread on here) - he agreed. but (and it's a big but) then went on and on about how he can't be without me, our family, blah blah blah. all about him losing out. argh.

I definatly won't let him come back within 6 months - I have already sort of accepted and worked out life without him and it's lonely at times but not so bad. If he won't play ball and stay away for sufficient time to really concentrate on counselling (and especially if he gets angry at me for this) i will walk away - I have already prepared myself for it.

Don't know what I would say to DD in this situation - wouldn't want her to be in it and I'd help her to get out of it as many times as she needed my help. Sad thought just dawned on me - I should be helping her to get out of it now as although she's usually at school when he shouts, still she will witness it in some way, and she doesn't have a choice in where she lives etc unlike me.

He's got a main lot of faith in you if he thinks you can't hold on a few months without dashing off after someone else, just because he's not right under your nose to stop you. That's someone who really respects his partner, right? Er, or not.

So far it sounds a lot more as if his agenda is to convince you that he will/can change, rather than to actually change himself. It's not hopeful, sorry.

Your last sentence says it all, sadly, ExasperatedNo2

Hello AnotherOne

Sorry you are in a similar situation.
EA is Emotional Abuse. I have been reading about it and educating myself about it on here for ages - I have low-self-esteem so I have had to literally force myself to get boundaries and believe I deserve respect. Think Iam getting there.
Lundy Bancroft and Pat Evans are authors who write about Abuse. You can get their books on Amazon for not very many £.
Hope you can get some help for yourself.

Sorry, x-posted with a few, again. Sounds like you know what you have to do, although it will hurt. If only doing the right thing always felt good...

anotheronebites, EA is Emotional Abuse, and Lundy Bancroft and Pat Evan are two excellent authors on the subject.

Exasperated

we crossed posts.

I am in the same position at the moment. I faced up to the fact that my h is an emotional abuser. (*anotheronebites: ea =emotional abuse.)

Actually I kind of had no choice. I was told that if I stayed, that I would be complicit in the abuse of my own children....which was just TOO much to bear. I have had children's services here today in fact, telling me what a fab job I am doing...despite everything.

My h is in therapy now. He has said that he accepts that he has behaved abusively and is sorry. But I have told him that it requires a both of us to have a VERY deep understanding of how and why WE ended up here, and then baby steps. It will take a long long time (if ever) to trust him again.

I have had extensive therapy, and the freedom programme. I am not there yet either. I'm not sure I even know what a healthy relationship is!

The only thing I/you can do, is the stuff for ourselves. They either will or they won't. That is,actually, none of our business. Heartbreaking innit?