Can he change? What should I do?

[ExasperatedNo2]

Have namechanged as I'm on local searches and don't want anyone to recognise me.

I have been reading the relationships section for a while but never posted. Have been sort of 'gathering' information from it though. Have read Lundy Bancroft and Pat Evan's books.

I have been married for 6 years, together 7. The first 3 were fine between us (we have 1 Dc - born 2 years in) but I did notice some aggression and nastiness towards cashiers in shops etc(funny how most EA men are so similar), the last 3 have been really bad. He has been Verbally Abusive. If we have a normal everyday disagreement (ie me getting annoyed if he is late) he will go completely over-the-top , saying the most horrible things you wouldn't believe , like he tells me he doesn't love our child (not in front of her, but still), my face 'annoys' him etc etc etc.
Finally I got sick of it after a particularly bad outburst 2 weeks ago and threw him out to live the other flat we own (usually rented out but vacant for the summer) and have only spoken to him re-access to DD and finances. We both work so with tax credits could run separate households.

Tbh although I still love parts of him deep down, the abusive parts overshadow any good in our relationship. I have given him chance after chance to go to counselling etc and he never has, but before I always went back but now I have well and truly had enough.

Last week he rang me crying and begging and pleading for another chance, said he will go to counselling himself to learn how to stop his anger before it starts.

Naturally I didn't believe him so continued only to speak about DD and finances.

He has now actually been to see a counsellor (he says) twice, at £40 a session , paid for himself. He wants me to give him another chance.

I think he thinks it's a quick fix and keeps going on about how we can't split our family up etc.
I told him I'm too scared of him ever speaking to me like that again and I don't know how I feel about him now - just numb I guess. He said if he ever speaks to me like that again he will leave of his own accord and seems really upset

I suppose what I'm trying to ask is - can men like this really change? and can relationships be salvaged?

I refuse to walk around on eggshells all the time so I know it's over if he doesn't change.
He has promised in the past but still been verbally abusive. Although never had counselling before.

So can men like this ever change their behaviour? Or do they just change to a different way of doing it? What is a suitable time frame for us to be split up before we decide whether to try again?

Or am i just being silly in hoping that he really means it this time if he continues with the counselling? Once an abuser always an abuser?

Wise MN's please help

Argh #gives up#

ThisIsHowIFeel
Sorry you are in the same situation.
As far as my (limited) knowledge of EA goes, I don't think you should be telling him you both need to realise anything - he is the abusive partner, therefore he has to take sole responsibility for it - not implicate you at all. I may be wrong, maybe a more experienced MNer could clarify?

Iam - he seems to really want to change -but only because I'm going if he doesn't. Not because he really feels sorry for hurting me. In that case it won't work long-term - will only work until we have a period of not getting on for whatever reason and I'm the enemy again >resigns self to end of relationship<

Still have this compulsion to try to see if the counselling whilst living apart works though for some reason.

Annie Hope I didn't make you want to give up?!

But, the reality for me is, that I come from a much more abusive/ dysfuntional background than I ever knew. In order for this not to happen again, either with h or the next one, I must address MY issues. And the reality is, that h almost certainly came from a very similar environment.....Unless he has a personality disorder, which I don't believe he does. (I believe that my mother definitely does).
Anything that is learned, can be relearned, updated, rebooted, etc.

The problem is the "wanting" to.

I hope I am not a write off too.

Yes I get why you say that exasperated. I think that in order for them to understand that THEY have a problem, that would be the case. One of the tings they have in common is a COMPLETE refusal to accept that there is anything wrong with them....which obviously is the sign of a person who is unwell. None of us is perfect.

All I know is, that my h and I were attracted to one another for VERY profound and subconscious reasons. I can see that now. And I don't want to go on like that....either with him...or anyone else.

I think there are multiple aspects of EA. For example I felt controlled by my ex/p so I blew up in rages and said some horrendous things. So who's abusing who? Ultimately relationships are complex and there isn't just one fine thread linking but loads of fine threads and they are all different and changeable.

I will also say, since he has moved out I have gone through the stages. Anger, denial and i'm now in the acceptance stage. I accept what was happening was unhealthy, some of that was undoubtedly down to me.

When he first left I thought I couldn't go on and life was not worth living- couldn't even breathe on my own, life turned to shit. Over the last few weeks I have spent thinking about me, what im like, reading, absorbing and generally accepting. I can now accept my role in "what went wrong". It may be that he is still not accepting and this might be temporary.

Whether you can love him at the other end of it is something completely different. Its almost not relevant in a way, he shouldn't be doing this for you, but for himself.

1foot x

thisis, no, no, nobody annoyed me, I just kept cross-posting with people so it looked like I'd got some kind of echo compulsion going. I doubt very much whether you're a write-off. You're too self-aware, for a start, and you're determined that your issues won't lead you to hurt anyone else. This means you will put in however much effort it takes, and officially makes you A Good Egg.

Exasperated, I respect your choice to wait as long as you feel it's right for the bugger your H to work through his counselling, just don't let him back in in the meanwhile!

That's very true 1FOOT

I have often thought that at the end of all of this, if we both get the therapy we need etc etc, there's a good chance we will NOT be atttracted to one another anymore...because that dysfunction, that NEED won't be there any more.

anotheronebites, do you not think that your children's (and your) fear of divorce is fear of the unknown? (Obviously I don't know what their SN(s) is/are).

Being a single parent family is far better than treading on eggshells and having to skirt around your H's moods and tempers.
Look through some of the threads on here, those who have got out and stay out are happier and more confident within months (if not weeks or even days).
I can vouch for that myself, single parenthood can behard, but I would far rather bring my children up alone than be where I was 2 years ago. I was a shadow, tired and depressed, I was unable to have my own opinions, my own taste in music or tv. I walked looking at my feet.
Now I hold my head up high, have a spring in my step and have remembered who I am, and what I like. And best of all mostly I look like this

People don't change after a certain age.

But his behaviour towards you can change.

If he is verbally abusive to people who thinks are inferior to him in social status or character, then it is possible to make him see you in a different light and treat you as an equal rather than a "cashier".

Showing him a side of you that is strong, who doesn't need him would probably shock him into reassessing your relative status/character. That may have been what happened recently - you kicked him out and made him stay out, and he came back begging.

Thanks Annie You are hereby added to my "list of things that are good about me" that I was given as homework for my inner child therapy on Monday!!!!!!
Thank you!!!!!

"a good egg"

He can change. But it will take ages and hard work on his part and you probably can't live with him while he does.

People don't change. BUT...they can learn to manage their issues if they really want to. The thing that leaps from your post is that he has already admitted his faults by going to a counsellor. It would be very beneficial for you both to go together.

His behaviour is so unacceptable. But if he can learn to re-direct his anger instead of lashing out with verbal abuse, you guys may have a chance. Nobody deserves to be treated this way though.

He obviously loves you and wants to keep his family together. Anger management is so important. I wish you the best of luck Exasperated. And set a timescale, and keep a record of his abuse.

Just on time frames I think a professional would tell you that for this kind of issue a year or two of weekly sessions would be needed to see real change. The first thing is to get insight into the behaviour, recognise that he is doing it. That may at first only be possible in hindsight, then later at the time. Only then can you move on to actually changing behaviour. There is no quick fix. You should definitely not let him move back in for at least 6 months. There is a lot of trial and error involved in making this kind of change even if he's committed and can you really afford for you and DD especially to be his learning curve?

Thanks for both of your replies.

You are right, he explodes in anger when he feels someone is getting at' him (ie-normal family/couple dispute) and completely over-reacts - going straight for the jugular. Sort of like a teenager saying "I wish you were dead!" or something to the parent in an argument

He says later that he doesn't really mean those things he says but by that time they have already left their footprint on me and that's not acceptable at all - I'm not his doormat for his anger issues.

He says also that at the time he thinks he is justly defending himself, but only realises how hurtful he was in hindsight.

That's why I think counselling/anger management will be good for him and hopefully he can address the issues and triggers. But at the same time, I don't hold out much hope unless he takes the counselling very seriously indeed - not just pays lip-service.

No me and DD will definetely not be being his learning curve

Hi Exasperated. I have been reading this thread with some interest as I am in a very similar position. My H behaves in exactly the way you have described (maybe to a slightly lesser exent) at times. To summarise in two words - aggressive and defensive.

We are going through a very recent (and not sure if temporary) separation at the moment, and I just don't know what to do about asking him to come back.

There are other issues with our relationship besides the anger too.

I will be watching this thread. Good luck.

Exasperated - Myself and H are in therapy (separately) now for about 9 months.
H was verbally and mentally abusive and could get 'rough' if really riled in an argument. Like your H he just couldn't have a little argument, he took out the big guns immediately if challenged.
He has accepted his behaviour was wrong, he has generally gotten past the 'circumstances were so difficult because of how you (i.e. me) behaved' and is now moving on to the 'I couldn't cope with the circumstances which were extremely difficult' stage (not the end stage obviously). He is haveing small and sometimes major realisations every week now, and I see that he is making progress in how he behaves towards me and dc.
I have my own issues and started therapy almost as soon as he did as I realised I needed support. My own boundries were non-existant, and I realised that I needed to learn how to behave differently myself - principally when and how to stand up for myself.
It's a lot of work, and extremely expensive (where I live) as I know that this could be the set-up for another year at least.
I have not committed to stay in the relationship just because he is going to therapy. He knows that I need to see real concrete changes. So it's his behaviour that counts rather than the effort he is putting in 'trying to do something about it'.

Thank you both for your replies.

Zedsdead I'm sorry that you are going through the same thing .Hope you can get some guidance too.

NewName Thank you for your insight. I think my H has accepted his behaviour is wrong, and in the last couple of weeks seems to be doing some soul-searching (well in the times I've seen him to hand-over DD he has- maybe an act? See how little I trust!).
He said something not-so-good the other day - he said that we need to 'relate to each other better' - yes that could be true, but healthy relationships don't involve verbal abuse. Bad communication yes, verbal abuse NO.
When you said "So it's his behaviour that counts rather than the effort he is putting in trying to do something about it" it really rung a bell with me - my H wants me to love him , commit to relationship (well he didn't say this but intimates it whenever I'm there) because he is "trying" (ie going to counselling) and so far in 2 weeks things have been civil . We aren't even living together fgs. I can't commit to anything or start to relax until months go by and his new tools for dealing with anger have been tested by normal family disputes. Until then I still have it in the back of my head that I am leaving for me and kids sake (if it happens again.)